Time, Anxiety, and ADHD Navigating the Intersection of Two Unique Minds – with Amber Hawley
Warning: this episode includes explicit language so you may want to skip this episode, use headphones or listen at a time when there are no sensitive ears around.
It’s hard enough to build and run a sustainable and successful practice. But how do you do that when you have a neurodiverse brain and the tactics and advice often given about running a practice aren’t designed for the way your brain operates? And how do you make sure your practice is more diverse and accessible to those who are neurodivergent?
That’s the question we explore in this week’s episode when Jo is joined by Amber Hawley. Amber is a licensed therapist and business mentor who helps ‘neurospicy’ (as she likes to call it) business owners get $hit done in a sustainable way that decreases the risk of burnout and increases satisfaction, profitability and overall happiness.
In this conversation, Jo and Amber discuss:
- Amber’s experience of being diagnosed with ADHD in her 40s
- The importance of self-acceptance
- The ways allied health professionals can unintentionally reinforce shame-based judgements,
- The importance of understanding the need to adapt business tactics to fit your brain, rather than trying to adapt your brain to fit the tactics, and
- The advice she would give to allied health professionals to help them support neurospicy clients.
You can find out more about Amber at her websites https://amberhawley.com/ and www.stilldistracted.com (website coming soon) or listen to her podcasts, the Easily Distracted Entrepreneur and the Easily Distracted Therapist wherever you are listening to this.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com
Transcript
Jo:
Welcome to the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. I am Jo Muirhead, your host, and we’re into season three. Yay for season three. My guest today is Amber Hawley, and we are talking into a topic that I think is necessary and important, and some of you are going to go, but Jo, this topic is being done to death. We’re gonna be talking into neurodiversity, but before you switch off and go, oh my God, I know everything there is to know about neurodiversity, I encourage you to do two things. The first thing is, if you’ve got children listening with you, turn this off, because chances are you’re going to hear some foul language you have been warned. The second thing is you can’t possibly know everything there is to know about neurodiversity. So stop <laugh> deceiving yourself. And my challenge to you is to find the one piece of information that you didn’t know, didn’t expect, or that you can now use in your health practice. Are we ready to go? Amber, are you ready to go? Did you like that intro?
Amber:
I’m ready to go, and I love it. Yes. <laugh>, that was why the warning? Because I like spicy language <laugh>.
Jo:
Yeah, and I’m not gonna try and ask you to be something that you’re not. But I just think it’s fair to warn other people in case we both end up on that side of the page. Amber, who are you and what is it that you bring to this world?
Amber:
Yes. well, thanks for having me on. I’m excited. So I’m Amber Hawley. I’m a licensed therapist by trade. And I’m a former dot commer. I like to say I’m an ENFP with ADHD, I’m a dotcom dropout <laugh>. So how do I say it? But I would say a majority of my time is spent helping neurospicy, I like to call it that, but neurodivergent or neurodiverse business owners get $hit done. And in sustainable ways. Like I’m a big systems person, so it’s very much like burnout prevention, and a lot of self-acceptance surrounding the fact that our brains work a little differently and they aren’t always built for the neurotypical world.
Jo:
I’m thrilled to have you on this podcast. One, we’ve known each other for a while, so we’ve got really high trust here. We also have a lot of respect for each other. So the way you turn up in the world, and I guess we’ve kind of watched each other’s careers over the last almost 10 years.
Amber:
<Laugh>. Wow. It’s just amazing how fast time goes, right? <laugh>.
Jo:
And at that time, when I first met you, I was so impressed that you were a dot.com dropout that decided to become a health professional or a mental health professional. Can help me understand, help people understand how you made that career change?
Amber:
Yeah. Well, like most 27 year olds, I had an existential crisis. <Laugh>, that’s the sarcasm part. I think I was always meant to be a therapist. It was something I was really interested. I remember in like high school, it was like, be a lawyer or be a psychologist. Those were like the two things that were like in my purview of what I was interested in. And I have so much love and respect for the dot.com world because I worked in Silicon Valley. I lived in Silicon Valley for 22 years, and yet I had this point where I was like, what am I doing? If the world were to end tomorrow, would my job matter? Would creating this website or whatever matter? And I still think there is value in all of that stuff. So it’s not saying somebody who creates websites doesn’t have value. It was, for me personally, I felt like there’s something else I’m supposed to be doing. And so I decided to go back to school and it was really exploring it. And then it was just like, yeah, going back to the thing, what are you good at? What people have always told me their stories. People always confide in me, like things they’re say and like, I’ve never told anyone this. And I was like, I might as well get paid for this part because <laugh> I’ve been getting it since I was young, like very, very young. And I love it. And ’cause I actually got to the point in the particular company that I worked at where I was like, I began to hate people. I was like, that’s where I said, I’m like, everyone sucks. I hate them. And I realised, no, it was that. I didn’t like the corporate structure. It just didn’t work for me. And I love connecting with people. It was just that I didn’t like that it wasn’t authentic and it wasn’t, I don’t know, it just didn’t feel like genuine connection always. So that was the part that I struggled with.
Jo:
Wow. So you took yourself back to school as a 27 year old. Okay. So you incurred some debt, I’m assuming?
Amber:
Yeah. ’cause I mean, I was paying for it myself. And the thing is like, well, this is part of my neurospicy journey, even though I was very smart, I skipped my senior year and got like a free year of college ’cause of the program we had in my school, I did not know I was A-D-H-D. I did not find out until I was like 40, 41. And it was after I met you, I didn’t even know when I met you that I had ADHD. And I struggled with so many things and there was a lot of life stuff happening. And so I ended up just going full-time, working in retail and then being a nanny. And so I actually went back to school and got my bachelor’s first at 27, and then went straight to grad school because I had to pay for myself. Like, I had to live on my own. I moved out at 18. And I’m glad I waited because I wasn’t ready until I was.
Jo:
Yeah. So you’ve now disclosed to the world that you have ADHD. What does that mean? So can we just, let’s just get back to some basics here, right? Like, what is this thing, this phenomenon that we now read about or hear about, about neurodivergence or neurodiversity? What is it? What does it mean?
Amber:
Yeah, I guess in a general way, I’m not gonna break down like a DSM diagnosis for anybody.
Jo:
Oh, please don’t go. Please don’t.
Amber:
Like, because that’s boring. So I like to say well, it’s really about, there are these spectrum of things in which, that’s why I say neurosspicy. ’cause I feel like we all have our own little blend and recipe. Like some people you meet, they might be ADHD, but they might have these autistic traits and they might have this other stuff, but it’s a collection of ways that people’s brains work differently, right? So there’s neurotypical and it’s like, your brain works in this way and it’s kind of accepted. I feel like the neurospicy brain, it operates differently. And so it perceives time differently. There are studies to show this with, like when you look at brain scans, when a neurospicy person, an ADHD person tries to focus on something, the harder they try to focus their brain actually, the brain doesn’t focus. It actually is diffuse. I feel like we’re in negotiation with our brain all the time.
Jo:
Wow. What a great way to explain it.
Amber:
Good. I was like, I’m like, is this gonna be the most unprofessional way to explain it <laugh>
Jo:
Let me give you a chance to take a breath and regather your thoughts around it, because in my private practice, PurpleCo, we’ve been working with people whose brains don’t work the same way as my brain ever since we started. And one of my career disappointments, I guess, has been that for so many years we were supposed to treat these people to make their brains work differently. And I’ve never subscribed to that because <laugh> there’s only so much we can do. And then I started investigating it more and looking at the different ways that a neurospicy person operates. And I started to learn so much about, well, I now call them neurospicy hacks. I’ve got many. Like, I do not fit on the spectrum, you know? You wouldn’t find me in any of those categories. But I have gleaned so much from a neurospicy way of thinking and some of the hacks and the time management and the focus and the locus of control stuff that I’m like, maybe you guys have got it right and we’ve got it wrong. <Laugh>. And then in my practice, how we were encouraged to treat these conditions. And I don’t like it. So my philosophy has very much adopted the how do I help a neurospicy person make sense of themselves in a neurotypical world? So that’s kind of my philosophy. And anybody on my team would have that philosophy. We don’t try to make a neurospicy person non-neurospicy anymore. But there’s still some shame and guilt, maybe parental guilt attached to a child or an adult coming out with this diagnosis. What was that like for you? You said you didn’t get diagnosed until you were 40.
Amber:
Yeah. Well, first I just wanna say like, I think there would be such a substantial difference of people would take your philosophy, like to understand because that would be like saying, I’m gonna make this gay person not gay.
Jo:
<Laugh>. Yeah.
Amber:
Let me figure out how to fix them. There’s nothing to fix. That’s the way they are. This is the way our brains are, right?
And just to touch on, so there’s like ADHD, autism, OCD, dyslexia, dyspraxia bipolar, HSP, like those are all things I just threw out a bunch of abbreviations. ’cause we don’t have time to say full words, but <laugh> just to say there’s a big collection of ways in which people’s brains just work differently, right? And so this acceptance, that’s why it’s neurodiversity. There’s a diverse way in which people’s brains work. And if we can let go of the idea that all brains work in this one way, in this neurotypical way as that being the right way, it would be so transformative to people because there is a ton of shame. The people who are neurospicy, it kind of gets instilled in them because they’re not doing it right. Like, there’s this idea of, well, if you just tried harder, or what I hear, and I would say it to myself all the time, I hear it all the time from business owners, if I just did it better, I could make this work. And I’m like, no, because that’s not the way your brain works. And it’s so much easier to adapt the tactic to fit how your brain works. Like that’s where the magic is, right? Because there’s all this good stuff that comes with being neurospicy too. But there are, of course, there are inherent challenges. So I think that would be so formative, and I’m a couple’s therapist was my specialty. And the statistic is that couples will go to an average of six people before the person will get the diagnosis to understand that they have ADHD or have a person, a couples therapist who has enough knowledge to not be telling them to do things that don’t work for a neuro diverse person.
And so, unfortunately when you talk about forgetfulness or attention or hyper focusing, you know, things that come with being ADHD, obviously that impacts a relationship because people will perceive it as like, you don’t care about me. I’m not a priority. When that may absolutely not be true at all. So how do we address that? So I think your philosophy would be so transformative because I come across a lot of therapists, which you would hope they would know better, where it’s just this value judgement. This is the right way. And I think we have so many value judgments, and I see unfortunately for us, especially people diagnosed later in life. But I think for everyone, there is a value judgement of, I’m not supposed to be this way. This is the right way to do things. Ooh, the right way is to get up and be at work at 8:00 AM and work until five and do X, Y, z. And it’s like, that doesn’t work for me. So I’ve gotta figure out what does, right?
Jo:
Wow. I just just heard the shame-based statements that I’m, oh God, if, if I have done that to any of my past clients, because I was still learning I apologise right now <laugh>, but just that whole, I’m not supposed to be this way like that. That’s just knowing that there’s something inherently wrong with me. I dunno what it is. I dunno how to fix it. Dunno how to talk about it. Dunno where to go for it. And everywhere I go, like up to five couples therapists that I’ve gone to are all reinforcing to me and my partner that there’s something inherently wrong with me. That’s just mean. I’m just sorry. That’s just mean. I know.
Amber:
Well, and I’m in the productivity space, I do systems and I help people get $hit done. And in the productivity space, it’s the same thing. I would come across these experts and I’ve met so many, so many productivity experts who have ADHD which I love.
And so there’s very thoughtful ones, right? But then there’s somewhere I met this person and they’re like, well, when it’s painful enough, you’ll do it. And I was like, sister, you do not understand anything. Because it’s like my brain says, hold my beer. It could be the most painful, awful thing. You can see your life crumbling and you still cannot get yourself to do that thing. And there is nothing more shameful or awful, especially being a high achieving person. Right? I think for anyone who’s ADHD, but like having, not feeling like you are in control of your brain all the time, or why can’t I do this? It’s so important. You know? And it’s hard. The shame is a lot. I will say getting diagnosed, when I finally got diagnosed, it was such a relief.
‘Cause I thought all of these things that I thought were character defects or deficits were really ADHD symptomatology because I didn’t understand how to approach it. And had I known, I would’ve given myself the help I needed. Right? And so I thought, oh, well this is why I’m just a person. Or a lot of people hear a lot, oh, you’re lazy. And yet that were some of the most hardworking, motivated people, people I know, but we’re having to work extra, extra hard so we will like overwork and then like crash overwork and then crash because, it’s called masking to show up in the neurotypical world like most people do, takes an in exorbitant amount of energy. So I think that’s the tragedy of it all. And so I just wish there was more like understanding and acceptance and not just value judging. Like, oh, well you’re lazy, or you obviously don’t care because you’re not doing this one thing. And it’s like you care deeply <laugh>.
Jo:
Yeah. And we know that that rejection sensitivity is incredibly heightened for neurospicy people because you are working so hard. The way I’m picturing it right now is your brain is working so hard to be like me, be like Jo, be like a neurotypical person. So I just turn up and I get to do the things in a neurotypical way. You have to expend a lot of energy to turn up on time. <Laugh> to remember what it is that we were talking about <laugh>.
Amber:
I was like, Jo, I’m gonna take you down. I’m gonna take you down <laugh>.
Jo:
It’s all right.
Amber:
I was on time. It took 30 seconds for Zoom to let me in. And I get a message that comes through at 6.01am. I’m like, I was on time, Jo. One minute is not late. <Laugh>.
Jo:
Oh God. And for those of you who can’t see me right now, the blush in me is huge because my anxiety is making sure that I’m on time. So if I’m not 10 minutes early, I feel like I’m 10 minutes late.
Amber:
I knew it, I knew it when you commented the last time. And I was like, she’s one of those people who believes 10 minutes early. That is a value judgement. And again, I love you. So I can give you a hard time, but I will say like, when you did that, and I was like, Ooh, you just set a tone for me. Now I feel like on the defensive, and I feel like I have to prove myself when I was on time, it was like, I’m not 10 minutes early because I don’t believe that that’s on time. I think that’s a concept. Construct time is a construct, right? So why would I say that’s the right way? We all have different definitions.
Jo:
No, but I think this is a perfect example of this conversation that needs to be had just about something as simple as in my parents’ generation and I heard this, if you’re not on time, you’re lazy, you’re lazy, you’re lazy, you’re lazy, you’re lazy. And then it turned into you’re disrespectful. You’re disrespectful. You’re disrespectful. You’re disrespectful. So at a young age got terrified that if I wasn’t on time, I wasn’t the good girl. If I wasn’t the good girl, my, the love would be withdrawn from me.
Amber:
Exactly.
Jo:
Yeah. So I’ve now brought that into my adulthood. So I take that value judgement with me wherever I go. So already automatically, if I turn up 10 minutes early and then get anxious and fidgety waiting for the person to turn up, and they might be two minutes late, like, who cares? But I’m already setting a tone in that session that tells that client it’s not okay for you to be like this.
Amber:
Yes. Then it’s like, I have to overperform, or I’m defensive and irritated, and then my brain is focusing on that instead of the thing it’s supposed to be doing and talking about. And it’s always kind of playing there. And the thing is, it’s on you to learn to manage your anxiety because that’s where you get defensive. But that’s on you. But also to understand, I believe I’m being on time. ’cause I do run my life by appointments. I am back to back to back in appointments. So I would never be 10 minutes early because I’m still finishing up my last appointment <laugh>. Because that’s how I do it. But I do agree, like I do think there’s a time in which it’s egregious and it’s disrespectful, and if it’s consistently like that, I do think that there’s like conversations to be had. It can also feel like when I log into Zoom and I’m just waiting for Zoom to come in where you feel helpless. Like, well now I’m one minute late and now I’m in the lazy, not worthy person category. Whereas somebody else can show up like, you know, 30, 45 minutes late. It’s so ingrained in us and that’s why I appreciate you saying that. Like, some people are taught if you’re within five minutes, you’re totally good. Like, everybody’s taught differently. But we think our way is the right way and that’s how everyone should be. That’s a value judgement, right? I’m not saying you are right or wrong, I’m just saying that’s how it is.
Jo:
Just tell and I just wanted to use the example of something that was so often ignored. I mean, how often do we have a discussion with a new client about, so how do you manage time without it coming across? Yeah. How do you manage time, says the important person with all the power in the room, right? Because how do we have those discussions never come up? I don’t think I’ve ever had that. Just actually that’s not true. Those discussions I have with my men, usually men or people with brain injuries because I know that they’re not turning up <laugh>.
Amber:
Right. And there’s a justifiable reason when you know they have that, right? And it’s interesting you say that though, because I stopped working with a practitioner. She was an acupuncturist. And I loved her and I thought she was amazing. And I would see her or the owner of the practice and it just depended on the day. But your appointment lasts for a certain period of time. And you know, it would be like going to a massage therapist. Your appointment is 50 minutes. If you come late, you get a shorter massage. I’m willing to accept that consequence. If I’m late to something, I would never expect somebody to adjust to accommodate me. But this person, you could tell, if I was like five, 10 minutes late, she was very irritated. And I’m like, you know, it was the Bay Area traffic. And I’m just like, why do you care? I’m paying you, it takes you the same amount of time. I’m not expecting more. Why are you irritated? Like, that bothered me. And I was like, I just can’t deal with that. So I just stopped seeing her <laugh>. I need to be with somebody who understands me. But if clients come late habitually and then they expect me to give them extra time, that’s a very different conversation, rightBut if they can come and say, I know we’re done. Like, or they can acknowledge it or we had that conversation at one time, then it’s like, I feel no pressure to have to accommodate them. That’s wonderful. Those are small ways that we can learn, like you said, talk about it and figure out what works.
Jo:
And don’t be afraid to have somebody point out your own flaws to you. Like knowing my time, my relationship with time is so much a construct of me being an anxious person. That’s the way my brain works. It’s not always positive, it’s not always helpful, but it’s no different to a neurospicy person who has a different way of managing time. And if we’re going, rather than colliding and butting heads, it’s like, how do we make this work? So for most of my coaching clients, this is one of the conversations I had with them early on. It’s like, if you’re gonna be late, you just need to tell me.
Amber:
Yeah.
Jo:
Just work it out. If then I’ve got this gorgeous neuros spicy person in my world. Her name is Amek Kaufman. She has taught me so much. She’s a part of a mastermind that I run. And she just blanketly said, I find turning up on time really hard. It’s not because I don’t care. It’s something I don’t like, but it’s something that happens. And once she said that to us, we all just went cool. So if she turns up late, we’re like, Hey, it’s great you’re here. It’s just great you’re here.
Amber:
Yes. Exactly. So having that conversation, but not everybody’s that accepting. But I think it’s great. And yeah, I know I work with Amek too. I love her. And I don’t want this to sound defensive ’cause I’m not trying to be, but to explain, as a therapist, we know there are things you can do for anxiety. There are strategies as an ADHD person that we can do too. We all have accountability, but at a certain point, the way our brains work is like, we can’t change that. We can have conversations, we can accommodate. And I’m not saying you should be late. Like I do believe in being on time, right?
Jo:
And it’s the example we’re using today. We could’ve chosen a gazillion things, but this one came up naturally.
Amber:
<Laugh> But it’s a good one. ’cause It’s probably one of the most common. But it’s also time blindness. So even I’ll work with people and say, I’ve done this too, where I’m sitting there waiting for an appointment and I start working. We hyperfocus. So that’s the irony, right? It’s not that we don’t have attention. It’s that we don’t always control our attention. And when we’re really into something, we hyperfocus and that’s where we get amazing amounts of things done in a short period of time. And if we’re not interested in something, it’s like climbing Everest, being unprepared, right? Like, it’s very hard to focus. And so, I sat there and then all of a sudden I’m late. I’m actually late because I missed my reminder 10 minutes before. And then I’m sitting there and I don’t click that button to go into Zoom. So after that happened, I was like, okay, so now what I do is as soon as I’m done with one meeting, I get into Zoom and I’m there. That way the dinging comes when my client or whoever I’m meeting with, when they show up, I get that notification, right? Because that’s the thing where time can slip away. So that’s my responsibility as an ADHD person to figure out those hacks, right?
Jo:
So tell me more about this hyper-focused time blindness thing? Talk to me about time blindness or the hyper focus, ’cause to me that the outcome of that as a neurotypical person would be, well, you’re just frigging lazy. You’re unmotivated and you’re lazy. Like, I can see how I could form that judgement. But you’re telling me that it’s the opposite?
Amber:
Well, I mean, there are lazy people out there like <laugh>. Oh yeah. First let’s say that they’re not all ADHD, they’re just lazy people out there. But actually I always loved it when I first started seeing a therapist in my twenties and she said, you’re unmotivated. And I was like, Ooh, I like that. Like, it’s unmotivated. But even then, it wasn’t even that. ’cause then after understanding ADHD, I’m like, I am motivated. It just happens. Right?
I’m gonna answer your question, but I wanna answer this one first. ’cause I think you had mentioned it maybe even before we started recording, what people could do is just ask a question, like, what’s getting in the way or what’s happening that this wasn’t able to happen? Like helping them kind of figure out like how just telling ’em this is the way you do it, do it as opposed to let me understand what’s happening, what’s the process so we can kind of figure out what is a good trigger? Like I said, if I happen to come right on time and then I’m sitting there and I see the clock and I log in at time, but if sometimes when I’m early and then I get into something, it literally is time blindness. Like you just don’t realise time has passed. So it’s figuring out how I accommodate for that? Or how can we do it in a more creative and different way? But we still expect people to show up and do things and take care of life. But they have to approach it often very differently.
So the hyperfocus, well, I’ll give, I have so many examples like this. There was one where I was working on taxes because the tax extension deadline was coming up. So I was doing tax stuff and I started working. I had a full day of clients. But of course I waited till the end because again, activation, it’s almost like we don’t have a starter switch sometimes when it’s something dreadful. Sometimes we don’t have a finisher <laugh>. But if we’re into something, we can start and go in. But once we get started, we can hyper-focus. I actually like numbers. I’m good at numbers, but the idea of taxes just sounds so dreadful. Even though I pay a CPA. So I started working on it and I was going through, and then I started going through my budgets and going through all different kinds of things. And then all of a sudden I heard a noise in the hallway. ’cause my husband was sick, so he was sleeping upstairs and I was in our room and I was like, oh, maybe one of the kids is up? Like, what’s going on? And I’m like, are you okay? Like, kind of yelled out, like, are you okay? What’s going on? They were getting ready for school. I had stayed up all night and I didn’t even realise it. I got so engrossed in it <laugh>. It was literally six something in the morning.
And that is not the only time that has happened. And that was just last year. I mean, I’m 48, this still happens where sometimes you just get so engrossed into it, time ceases to exist, right? So I do things. I have strategies to make sure. Will it work a hundred percent of the time? No, because I’m a human, not a robot. But there are things that you can do. But that’s what happens in that hyper focus. The good side of that is when you’re doing a project or you have a lot of work to do, you can deep dive into it and get it done in like a day that would take other people three, four weeks, right? So there’s an upside, but there’s a cost to that as well.
Jo:
So that’s one of the ways I’ve helped people in their workplaces who can get a lot done in a very, very short space of time, but then they crash and crash and burn. ’cause I’m, yeah, nobody can maintain that level of focus and energy without there being a consequence. Right?
Amber:
Correct. A hundred percent.
Jo:
So helping their employer understand that the way to get the best out of this person is to give them projects. Don’t give them open-ended things to get done. You need to give them a project style way of working. And for that particular person at that particular role, once we worked out, instead of them being a nine to five person, then the jobs just went on and on and on and on and on and on ad nauseum. We went, right, you’ve got a project to complete. This is the start date. This is the end date. These are the resources you’ve got. This is the expectation that you’ve got. So we took it away from time and turned it into function and oh my God, their performance went through the roof.
Amber:
Yes. There’s a couple pieces to that. One is like, again, working in Silicon Valley, so many people like engineers or all different kinds of professionals, but they have these big projects or deadlines. But then there was this feeling that they would show up to work. I have to be there at nine. And literally they couldn’t focus because the work environment they were in, they’re sitting in open cubicles, terrible for people with ADHD. And then their brain’s not online. They basically would start work around 5:00 PM when everyone would like to start to leave or whatever. And so then they ended up working until like nine at night or 10 at night. And so they were working so long and that’s really draining. And so to understand that sometimes they’re overworking because their environment isn’t supporting them or at a time of day isn’t supporting them. Oh and I would say I would never give a giant project and say, okay, you’re, it’s due in two months. I would have check-in deadlines. <Laugh>.
Jo:
Yeah.
Amber:
It’s such a different thing. And that’s the one thing I did like about the dot.com world is now there are some places where people are working and the expectation is 9am. But often it was like, hey you know, if you’re there by 11am, it’s great. And I was like, awesome. Like I’ll work late at night. And when I started my business, at first I was only working on the weekends and during the day, which wasn’t ideal, but that’s when I had childcare. And then I was able to switch. I started seeing clients at 1:00 PM and I would see clients till 9pm. And it was great for me because then I didn’t have all that pressure and stress of the morning and just feel constantly behind. Because even if I wake up at seven, I don’t wanna talk to people at seven or nine. Like, that’s not where I’m at. <Laugh> and everybody’s different. I know ADHD people who love to get up at four or five. Yeah. Everyone is different. There’s no one brain for, you know, even ADHD, autism, anything. I think we think of like movie characters, as though that’s what that looks like. And no, it’s not.
Jo:
No. And that’s an important thing to bring up. I think for those of us who don’t live in a neurospicy world, that’s kind of the only pattern that we’ve got is the movie figures. And they haven’t been represented accurately. I feel like we could keep talking. We say this every time we get on and talk to each other. <Laugh>.
Amber:
I feel like I’ve 14 other things to say.
Jo:
I know. So I’ll have you back so you can talk about the 14 other things <laugh>. So if you could give health professionals of any discipline, a piece of advice to help them make neuro-diverse people feel more like, I belong here, I can get the treatment here. What’s one thing that we can be doing that just might set a different tone and not one of judgement and shame?
Amber:
Yeah. I think anytime you’re presenting them with information and asking, does that seem like something that would work for you? Like even asking it in that way? Because there are times where I work with clients and I’m like, I know this is the right thing. How we make that happen might look a little bit different, but there are some truths, right? Like that we understand. But I think just asking so that it doesn’t feel like this is the only way. And if you don’t do it this way, that means you are a broken person and you’re wrong and it’s hopeless. Like, you’re never gonna get help because again, this is what I hear from people all the time and they’re like, look, I just had a client say, there is no system that’s ever gonna work for me, so I just have to work harder. And I was like, that’s sucks. And it’s not true. I would talk to them, if you are having things come up for you or you’re feeling like they’re being resistant, sometimes you think being resistant and they’re not on board and whatever, and you talk to them and find out there was one thing they just couldn’t move past to do the thing to execute the thing.
And if you, by talking to them and letting them name it or identify it or even not feel shame about it, it allows them to actually implement your advice or the support you’re trying to give them. But often that’s what happens is we’re like, mentally this is where I’m supposed to go. And then it’s like this roadblock that you can’t get past. So I think just talking to people more and trying to understand where they’re coming from, like it makes a difference. ’cause Like I said, I’m like, you have to have a schedule. And I know I’m telling ADHD people to have a schedule. That’s the last thing we want. And I’m like, but I know you need it. Like, let’s create one that you want to actually execute, right?
Jo:
And it’s not, don’t do this people, you need task management software. Here’s a link to Asana. Don’t do that. <Laugh>.
Amber:
That will never work. Especially ’cause Asana is horrible.
Jo:
Yeah, exactly. It’s like now, so let’s have a look at three or four that you might like. And then they get overwhelmed by choice, right? So ask which features of which one do you like the most? Which one do you hate? Let’s get rid of the one you hate. So we end up having to work with them. So what I love is I don’t have to have all the answers. I just create the space for the answers to come. And it’s something as concrete as let’s create a schedule that we know you’re gonna wanna stick to. I know you need to get to work. You are telling me, having this job is important. So let’s work out a way that you can get to work on time. Because if you stop, if you keep turning up two hours late, your boss is gonna sack you. So how do we make this work?
Gonna wrap this up now so it’s obvious that we’ve got more to say. So Amber will be coming back.
So Amber, when we finally get to be in real life, in real space, again, we’re having a coffee together. What am I ordering for you?
Amber:
For me? Well, it would either be black coffee or an oat milk cappuccino.
Jo:
<Laugh>. Beautiful. Those I can do.
Amber:
I was like, is that a real question? I was like, did I misunderstand the question, <laugh>?
Jo:
That’s the real question. That’s how everybody knows this episode’s ending <laugh>.
Very cool. Amber, if people wanna learn more about how they can be supported by you or the resources and tools that you have available, where can they find you?
Amber:
Yes. well I have a podcast called The Easily Distracted Entrepreneur and another one that just launched called The Easily Distracted Therapist if you happen to be a therapist. So if you’re listening to a podcast, you probably like podcasts. Otherwise amberhawley.com or if to see the breadth of work. ’cause you know, it’s very hard to focus <laugh> still.distracted.com is a great place ’cause it touches on all the different types of work.
Jo:
That’s really cool. Oh, I’m going to go find that. We will have those resources and links in the show notes for you. You can come and find Amber and I on social media, make sure that you check her out even if you’re not neurodiverse and you’re not neurospicy. You have so much to learn to help your practice become more inclusive, more accessible. And you know what, you’re probably gonna learn a few things to help you. Okay. This has been the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Until next time, go be your awesome self.
Published on:
JANUARY 9, 2024
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