Navigating the Boundaries Coaching vs. Therapy in Private Practice with Patrick Casale – A Candid Conversation on Building Success Without Compromise
Warning: this episode includes explicit language so you may want to skip this episode, use headphones or listen at a time when there are no sensitive ears around.
Many allied health professionals look to coaching as a way to diversify and maximise their income. But what is the distinction between coaching and therapy and what are some of the pitfalls for therapists who want to offer coaching services?
That’s the topic of this week’s conversation with Patrick Casale. After serving the community as a mental health professional for over a decade, Patrick began to leverage his ability to build and create authentic relationships to launch a successful 7-figure group practice and private coaching business. He is now a speaker, retreat planner, podcast host and business strategist.
In this conversation, Jo and Patrick discuss:
- What is the difference between therapy and coaching, and how to recognise the boundary between the two,
- What is coaching in the context of private practice and how it’s different from therapy,
- The pitfalls commonly faced by therapists who seek to add coaching to their practice,
- How the lack of accountability in coaching can put both you and your client at risk, and
- The top 3 things health professionals need to pay attention to now, and in the future.
You can find out more about Patrick at https://www.allthingspractice.com/ or by following @allthingsprivatepractice on all the socials. Plus you can also listen to Patrick’s podcast, All Things Private Practice Podcast.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com
Finally, if you loved this episode, please make sure you subscribe and leave us a review.
Transcript
Jo:
Welcome to the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. I’m your host, Jo Muirhead, and today I have a guest and this guest and I have been trying to connect for some time to be on this podcast. But you know what, as health professionals, we know that life gets in the way. We know that we get to deal with medical emergencies. Sometimes we are dealing with business emergencies. Sometimes we just feel like crap, and we don’t wanna turn up and do a thing that we don’t have to do. So I am incredibly grateful that I have Patrick Casale, who is with me today, who has given up some time, energy and vocal <laugh> vocal capability to share some of his awesomeness with us today. Now, just a word of warning, Patrick likes to swear and cuss, which means that Jo will probably mirror his language. So if you don’t like swearing and cussing, you have permission to hit the stop button. Fast forward. But you have been warned, we don’t do it to offend you, we just do it because it’s the way we converse. So let’s get going. So, Patrick, welcome. Tell us about who you’re, what you do, what you put out to the world. Let’s go.
Patrick:
Okay, thanks Jo. I’m gonna do my best to censor myself. Now. I’m gonna be super self-conscious about it, <laugh>. And I appreciate you having me on. I know it’s been months of back and forth. For those of you who don’t know me, I’m Patrick Casale. I am the founder of All Things Private Practice, the host of the All Things Private Practice podcast, the co-host of the Divergent Conversations podcast, an international entrepreneur retreat and summit host, a coach strategist and group practice owner here in Ashville, North Carolina. Probably more things I hate talking about myself. So yeah, I think that’s it.
Jo:
Thank you, Patrick. That’s great. How long have you been doing the coaching thing now? Is it four years?
Patrick:
Yeah, I think it’s a little over three. I think I started it in August of 2020.
Jo:
Yeah. So, oh, August of 2020. And, and what I have appreciated and am so grateful for is you came into the coaching of private practitioners space with such a commitment to build relationships. When you reached out to me, it was just like, Hey, I’m Patrick. I’d really like to get to know you. It wasn’t “buy my thing”. Promote my stuff. I’m better than you. It was like, I just really wanna get to know you. I wanna learn from you. I wanna see what’s out in the world. And you probably don’t know this, but there’s a few of us who are kind of like going, have you met Patrick yet? He seems like he’s the real deal. So if you didn’t know that, that’s what some of us who have been around a little bit longer than three years, we’ve enjoyed you coming into the space.
This is not what we were originally gonna talk about today. So lucky Patrick, he found out yesterday that I had changed my mind and we’ve had some stuff go down especially in the US have had some stuff go down in the coaching space this year that’s been disappointing and saddening and frustrating and made people angry. And I don’t wanna talk about that specific situation, but I really think it’s important for us to have a conversation about two things. Number one, to actually help people understand what to expect from coaching and coaches. And number two, I’m really curious towards the end of this episode today to find out what you think the top three things are that therapists or health professionals in private practice need to be aware of in the coming future. So let’s start with the question about Patrick, what is coaching in the private practice space? What does it mean?
Patrick:
You know, I think coaching gets such a bad rap, and it’s interesting that you brought up how you and I connected at first because I’m just a genuine person. So when I was reaching out to people, I was genuinely interested in reaching out and connecting, but I think that feels off-putting and unusual in a space where a lot of people are constantly selling and marketing and selling and marketing. So I think that probably felt like one of those situations, like where’s the pitch? <Laugh>, we’re in a unique space right now in the mental health entrepreneurial world because the job is so hard as clinicians that so many people are looking for ways to diversify their income or maximise their income without doing one-on-one therapy for a variety of reasons. It could be like, I’m burnt out, I can’t do this job anymore. I’m so sick of dealing with insurance contracts. I am just feeling overwhelmed. I wanna be more creative. I wanna have more freedom. So I think we’re seeing in a way a mass exodus from the profession where it’s like, but I could just be a coach and then I don’t have all of these restrictions and all of this money that I can make is now more available to me. So I see it as a good and a bad thing. I think provided that we have some ways to have checks and balances because of the word coach, right? Especially like people immediately think of life coach and then it gets this negative connotation of like, that’s gross. It’s just someone who’s exploiting people, they don’t have any experience. But for mental health professionals who then add coaching into the mix who already have master’s degrees, doctorates, et cetera, it’s just applying the skill sets that we already have in more of an entrepreneurial focused way. And I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, but that does mean that you have to walk in both worlds a little bit in the private practice world and the coaching world. And I think that can feel uncomfortable for a lot of people.
Jo:
Yeah. Agreed, especially for those in the US as most of you have master’s degrees. I love the way every time somebody mentions that I immediately feel less than <laugh>. You went to school for a long period of time, and then you’ve got some exorbitant amount of hours that you have to do for your supervision before you then sit these very intense exam periods before you’re allowed to say that you are a therapist of whatever discipline that is. So if you look at the context of human behaviour and how we learn, we’ve got these very, very entrenched neural pathways by the time you’re actually clinically licensed, right? It’s like, this is how we do the therapy. Client comes in, we diagnose, there’s a diagnosis there, we end up with a treatment plan, we follow said treatment plan. Insurance company does A, B, C, and D and throws everything out the window. We go back to the beginning and work out a different diagnosis. But it’s very, very much focused on that medical condition, that medical model, regardless of how much of us, we hate the medical model, we’re still operating in it. So then to just flip and say, I’m gonna just take my knowledge and skills and now become a coach. What are some of the pitfalls of that? One of the biggest frustrations I have for you guys in the US is this state-based licensure thing. I mean, I guess the population of Australia is less than the population of California, so we don’t have that here. But it’s like you’re licensed in a state, but yet you’ve got national guidelines and a national board. So it’s gonna feel much more freeing to go, I’m just gonna call myself a coach and do exactly the same work. What is the biggest problem with that approach?
Patrick:
It’s the lack of accountability. It’s the lack of protection in a way, both for the client and for the coach or the professional. So when we have these regulatory boards, although they’re archaic in a lot of ways, like I should be able to see a client who goes on vacation for two weeks if they’re having a crisis without having to worry about my licence being revoked because of that. So that’s a whole other aside. But in reality, so for example, I think there’s my brain’s diverging in multiple ways, but there’s a difference between business coaching and private practice coaching, and then coaches who are like, oh, I’m a therapist, but now I’m a marriage coach. Or I work with men on healthy boundaries. Like, I think there’s a difference between clinical expertise, entrepreneurial business-minded expertise. So I wanna parse that out a little bit. But there’s definitely, it’s the checks and balances again. So like for coaching, as long as you have a coaching contract, you can basically do whatever you want without repercussions. I think that can put you in a precarious situation for your own professional livelihood. And then it allows clients to also potentially be at risk if you’re not operating in an ethical way. And we’ve just seen a whole show of situations go on, as you alluded to. So there’s lots of things that can happen that can really have a negative impact on both sides.
Jo:
Yeah. And one of the things that I always do when people come to me for private practice coaching and they go, I wanna become a coach. I want you to help me become a coach. And the very first question I’ll ask them is, great, what’s your model of coaching? And they just look at me blankly and they go, and then there’s this assumption that, oh, I could just take what I was doing over here as therapy and just brand myself as a coach, not realising that that’s actually illegal <laugh> not to mention harmful <laugh>. And I’m calling that out a little bit because you do need to spend some time working out what your coaching model is going to be. And one of the exercises I like to take clients through is how do you know you’re doing therapy? And then how do you know you’re doing coaching? Can you speak into that a little bit? Like how do you know when you’re doing therapy and how do you know when you’re doing coaching?
Patrick:
Yeah, I try to make it pretty black and white. So if I’m doing something that is really licensure related, it’s related to my discipline, my licence and clinical mental health counselling, then I consider it to be therapy. If I’m doing something outside of that realm where I’m doing something based on training I’ve received, life experience, courses I’ve taken, things that I’ve created. I look at it as coaching, and I always get that question of like, I’m gonna add coaching to my therapy practice. And I always am like, please don’t. Please start a separate business because you want to have separation Licensure boards, especially in the states, do not want there to ever be the sliver of a possibility that a client got confused and is receiving coaching. But assuming it was therapy, that is a big no-no in this country. So if you’re a therapist who has a coaching practice built into your private practice, I’d be weary a little bit. And I would definitely want to maintain complete separation, different business entities, different bank accounts, different everything.
Jo:
Yeah. And for those of us who are in Australia, it’s not so much driven by our governance of our professional disciplines. It’s actually driven by consumer law. So Patrick makes a really good point here that it’s about protecting the client. So our clients often turn up not knowing what therapy is going to be, and they don’t know what coaching is going to be. But during a coaching relationship, you’ll have intense conversations and your clients will have intense emotions. The same as when you are in therapy, you will have intense conversations and your client you’re hoping is gonna have some intense emotions. So for the client, it might not feel any different, but if they walk away feeling wounded, if they are wounded, if they walk away without their expectations being met, and then they make a complaint and as we’ve heard from Kathy Love in this podcast series, ignorance is no defence. And we live in a very, very litigation responsive environment these days, and I get very concerned. So I think that is a really great safety mechanism to put in place. If you wanna be a coach and you’re already a health professional, make sure your clients know without any shadow. So you’ve gotta ttalk to them like they’re 14 year olds, make sure they understand there’s no confusion. That’s a really great point, Patrick.
Patrick:
It’s just a mechanism that’s built in to protect everybody, protect your licence that you’ve worked really hard for. ou alluded to the hours and the supervision and the training and the testing. You didn’t even talk about the student loan debt. Do not put that at risk by saying like, I’m just gonna lump everything together and then you’re not protecting yourself. And that, that’s really problematic.
Jo:
Yeah. It is really problematic. And so have you ever had a client say this to you like a coaching client? Because I know you deal with people in private practice all the time, and they go, oh, Patrick, this feels a bit like therapy. Have you ever had any of them say that? Or something along those lines?
Patrick:
I think a lot of times, like when I’m doing, when I’m doing private practice or entrepreneurial coaching, we are working on mindset stuff, right? Like imposter syndrome, self-doubt, perfectionism. The anxiety around money, et cetera. So therapeutic skills are definitely being utilised, but in a different lens and way, and it’s much more solution focused opposed to trying to work through the emotional response. But there have definitely been moments where I have sat there, maybe I’m working with a therapist in California or wherever, and I’m like, this feels like I’m giving therapy on how to run a private practice. This doesn’t feel good for me. That’s not what I want here. So I think it is easy for that line to get blurred a little bit too.
Jo:
Yeah. And I love the way you’ve used yourself there as a personal example ’cause that’s usually when I know something’s gotta change. So I have quite a strong visceral reaction when I’m doing what I call my clinical work. And when that turns up in my coaching world, I’m like, whoa, we’ve crossed a line. I might not be able to articulate what the lines are, but for me it’s an embodiment thing where it’s like, something’s not right. I need to go away, reflect on this. I need to get my own perspective. This is why I have coaches and mentors and people I trust in my world and where I can go. So this has just happened in a coaching session I didn’t like it. Can you help me understand where it’s gotten confused? Because the danger if we let that conversation keep going, is that the client has a new expectation of what we’re doing.
So I get to coach health professionals of many, many disciplines. So I’ve got occupational therapists and speech pathologists and physical therapists and blah, blah, blah, and mental health professionals. And one of the things I’ve noticed about mental health professionals all over the world is they love therapeutic conversations. They love to tell you all the details, all the story, all the emotional, all the backdrop. How do you manage that in a coaching session?
Patrick:
<Laugh>, I think it’s about setting expectations from the get go. Whether it be if you’re doing something like a discovery call process or an intake questionnaire or however you onboard your coaching clients, setting up the expectations for, Hey, this isn’t therapy. We are not gonna be here to examine all of these things. We’re here for these goals, how to get you closer to them and working through them and making them happen. So I think it’s a lot of redirection. And I think good coaches are certainly willing to be sounding boards to some degree, but not to the place where 50 minutes goes by and you’re like, holy, we just talked about this person’s Thanksgiving dinner and the family turmoil for 45 minutes. We don’t want to go down that road. So lots of redirection when that happens. I will say, what we’re getting off track here, what are we trying to focus on today? We came in wanting to rebrand our website and now we’re talking about A, B, and C. So let’s circle back, let’s make sure that we’re working on this. I also always suggest to my coaching clients that they have their own therapists. Because again, I wanna reiterate this separation and the complete black and white perspective that I am not that person for them for that reason. And that’s not why this relationship exists. So I just do a lot of that communication around the boundaries of the relationship
Jo:
That’s so important. And I know at the beginning of every coaching session, I encourage all of my one-on-one clients to fill out a pre-session form for me. It’s just to help them get focused on what we’re gonna be doing. Unfortunately, most of them don’t do it. And that drives me a bit batty. The form’s there for a reason people.
Patrick:
I’d be one of those people <laugh>.
Jo:
It’s okay. But I’m used to it now, but I know that most people see it and I know they’re prompted to go, Ooh, Jo, I know the question Jo’s gonna ask when I turn up, which is always, what is the number one thing you need to get from this session today? Not the number seven. The number one thing. Like the one thing. And then I can write it down because I need to do that. And then we can just redirect and circle back and go, I’m a bit confused at the moment. Are we talking about website redesign? ’cause I now feel like we’re talking about multiple streams of income. I’m a good coach, but I’m not gonna get it all done in one session today.
Patrick:
<Laugh> For sure. And that’s why mapping that out too and creating some sort of like roadmap of, hey, here’s what we’re gonna go over. If you’ve booked a package of four sessions or however your coaching works, to say here are the things that we’re gonna work towards and we’re going to accomplish during our time together. Because again, it’s also just modelling that healthy direct communication within the relationship that says this is the purpose of the relationship and this is how I’m going to help you.
Jo:
Oh, I love that. Please take notes. Go back, hit rewind, hit rewind. Take those notes. ’cause what Patrick is telling is helping us understand is that when you engage with a coach who has coaching as the foundation of that relationship, they are constantly going to make sure that we are in that coaching relationship. They’re going to be restating you, this is what you’ve asked me to do. Does this need to change? They’re not gonna just let you take off with the conversation and see where it goes. If you are working with a coach like that, I’d ask be asking questions about that. I would be asking questions about their process, about their coaching model. I’d be asking, where do you see this conversation going? How is this conversation helping me get to where you want to go. It’s up to us to help you get there based on our knowledge, skills and expertise. It’s not up to you to direct us just to come and vent all those venting conversations. Yes, they’re important, but sometimes wowsers they’re hard work.
Patrick:
Aren’t they hard? And you know, I can think specifically of examples like clients that come to me that are like, I want to go all private pay and I’m really good at niching down and content creation and strategising. So I notice that if money stuff starts surfacing yes, then it becomes much more of an emotional based conversation, then all of a sudden it’s starting to go towards therapy. That’s where being a therapist is actually useful. Because I can notice that and I can say, Hey, I think you may want to do some one-on-one work with your therapist around money, trauma, around your money story and your narrative. Today we’re gonna focus on how do we choose our niche and how do we create content that speaks to that client. We’re not gonna deal with the overwhelming dread and anxiety of, well what if nobody calls me? What if the clients don’t come in? Like, I can’t afford to do this type of stuff. So you just really wanna have that separation and again, just constant redirection.
Jo:
Yeah. And adult conversations. I think it’s about the coach having the security in who they are and what they do to know that we are not there. We wanna be friendly and we wanna like you, but you ha I’m not paying us to be your friend. I’ve had to have that conversation a couple of times. You are my client. It is much more important to me that we honour and respect the integrity of this client coach relationship. So that means right now I can’t be a friend. Like I’m gonna have to tell you stuff and speak to you in uncomfortable ways that you might not like because I’m not your friend.
Patrick:
Absolutely.
Jo:
Yeah. And I learned that from a coach and she did that beautifully. She’s been on this podcast that was Shawnee. She is very, very good. ’cause you don’t have to be hard and harsh and ugly with your boundaries, right?
Patrick:
No, you can do ’em in a respectful way. And again, I think it’s also like respecting your client’s time too to say, this is why you’re paying me. So let’s actually work towards what you’re looking to accomplish. And then that allows them to know that you take it seriously. I’m not just here for you to pay me, like have a lifelong never ending relationship. I’d like to get you to where you want to be so that we can move on.
Jo:
Yeah. Great. I really like that. I just had a thought, Patrick, if we think of a coach and a therapist as, do you call them tradespeople? So you’ve got a coach and you’ve got a therapist. You don’t ask your plumber to come along and do the work of a carpenter. Right?
Patrick:
Right.
Jo:
So I think we really need to get clear that it is that specific and that direct.
Patrick:
Absolutely.
Jo:
I generally bring in tradespeople analogies into my calls these days. Alrighty. That’s great. Patrick. So what do you say Patrick when people ask, can you coach me? What do you help people to do?
Patrick:
The fun answer is I say I no longer offer coaching. And that’s been a very easy conversation post throat surgery. But before that, so I haven’t seen a coaching client in over a year. I was basically, what can I help you do? We really concise types of things. So you want your website, you want your information to really speak to your ideal clients that are coming to you, but more importantly, you want to take it a step further and say, here’s what I can help you accomplish. Because you’re not gonna be the right fit for everybody. Just like you might not be the right therapist for everybody. Like I could teach you how to build a private practice. I feel like most people actually could do that. But if you’re really looking for the finer granular stuff, the emotional side of entrepreneurship, you want to get really real about it.
You wanna like work through the imposter syndrome, the self-doubt, but be able to take those risks. Then I was your guide. I was probably not gonna be the person who was gonna lead you by the hand and say, this is how you get an EIN this is how you get an MPI, this is how you apply for insurance contracts. I’m like, I have a guide that I created. You can read that, but we’re not gonna do that in a coaching session. So I did a lot of leadership coaching too, how to create teams, how to create culture, how to ensure that you’re hiring the right people, how to ensure that you’re stepping away and delegating when appropriate. So a lot of that is just stuff that I’ve always excelled at. And I felt really good about being really clear about what I could offer and what I couldn’t.
Jo:
No, that’s fantastic. And I love that you’ve been able to go, I don’t do one-on-one coaching anymore. It’s not my thing.
Patrick:
<Laugh> It’s horrifying. I think I’ve had to say that to about 500 people in the last year. And I did the math and I was like, <laugh>. But I just don’t have the energy. So it just became a lot easier to say, that’s not something I offer anymore. I’m sorry.
Jo:
Well done. I love that you’ve gone, I can’t keep talking, I just can’t keep doing all the talking. Number one, I don’t have the emotional bandwidth ’cause I’ve gotta deal with my own stuff. And number two, all the talking is bad for me.
So you now get to watch therapists in private practice or health professionals in private practice. And you’re talking to us and you are watching our behaviours and you’re a bit of a voyeur, I know that because I do the same thing. So my question to you is this, what do you think the top three things are that health professionals in private practice need to be paying attention to now and into the future?
Patrick:
That’s a great question. One of those three things is the usage of artificial intelligence within your business infrastructure, the way you use technology. We could have a whole episode on AI. It’s here. We’re not running from it. You’re not going to escape it. So I really suggest getting comfortable with incorporating and using technology to help you make your job easier. There’s AI that helps you write progress notes. There’s AI that helps you write business plans, that helps you create social media content. Like the sky’s the limit. And that’s kind of where our career path and our profession is trending towards. So that would be one. Number two, I would say zoom out a little bit from your business and start thinking about things that you may want to incorporate into your business infrastructure and diversifying income. Because as a therapist, your skills are so applicable in so many different ways and we hold ourselves back in this profession both monetarily and emotionally. And I think it’s really important to start examining the other things that you’re interested in. Number three. Pay attention to the people you’re surrounding yourself with. I think that our networks are so important. The relationships we build are crucial. It is an isolating profession and we need connection now more than ever. So I think really paying attention to how intentional you are about who you’re connecting with, what the purpose is and how to foster and grow and nurture those relationships because they will pay you back a million times over. And I think so often we just are like siloed head down, seeing clients doing work. The end of the day comes, you haven’t talked to anybody. That’s just not a healthy way to go through life. And in a profession that’s built on relationship and connection, I think it’s really important to have your own, especially professionally, to bounce ideas off of for accountability for days when you just need to vent and process. I think that is really, really crucial for longevity in this career.
Jo:
Absolutely. And I find it astounding, like we know that loneliness and isolation are at the root of so many serious mental health issues. People living with chronic illness become isolated. People with depression, people with anxiety. In Great Britain, they actually have a ministerial position. They are The Minister of Loneliness. It is that big of a deal for the population of people living in Great Britain, that they actually have a government position to a government minister that looks after. And so why would we think we are any different? And you probably noticed this on all of your retreats. The thing that people love is that I feel so connected. It’s not me. I’m not alone. And I think it’s one of the reasons why your retreats have been so successful is because people have this wonderful sense of, I came here thinking I was gonna learn this thing, but I walked away being renewed in my soul because I’ve taken care of this part of me. It’s just, it’s just wonderful. Just on that, if I may be so indulgent any chance the Bali one’s coming off?
Patrick:
<Laugh>? Oh man, I don’t know.
Jo:
I’ve got people asking me to do one and I’m like, oh man, I’m, I like to go to Bali for fun. I don’t know if I wanna go there for work.
Patrick:
Yeah, I don’t know if Bali is not high on my radar, so by all means, take the lead on that. I have so many places that are so much higher up there right now. And it is crazy because at this stage I am planning into 2026 and it feels a bit overwhelming sometimes.
Jo:
I can’t even handle that right now. <Laugh>. Yeah. Trust me. But you’re on the east coast of the USA. Bali is a really, really long way away. I’ve done the calculations, I’ve looked at the flight tracker. So really if you were gonna choose anywhere that’s in the middle, it would be Fiji, just putting that out there. Fiji smack bang in the middle of both of us. Just thought I’d let you know.
Patrick:
Those look very beautiful
Jo:
<Laugh> resorts. You know, what more could you want? Anyhoo. Patrick, you’ve been wonderful. And I can hear the fatigue in both of our voices today, but one final question when we get to meet each other in real life again, possibly in Fiji, just saying <laugh> and we’re at a cafe and I’m ordering you a coffee. What am I ordering you?
Patrick:
Oh man. Well I know we’re both coffee lovers. So I like that question a lot. It’s gotta be iced for sure and I’m really like, my favourite coffee is an iced Vietnamese coffee. I love the condensed milk plus cold brew like a strong Vietnamese coffee. So that’s my go-to at home. Anything cold is always good. I will drink cold coffee in a hundred degree fahrenheit weather. So I will drink it in 20 degree fahrenheit weather. It does not matter <laugh>.
Jo:
Okay, good to know. I will make sure the ice machines are working before I go to the counter. Fantastic. So Patrick, if people wanted to go, I wanna go on one of Patrick’s retreats. How do they get in touch with you? How do they find out about you?
Patrick:
Yeah, so you can go to my website, allthingspractice.com. All of our options are listed on there. You can follow me at All Things Private Practice on Instagram, TikTok, Facebook and you can listen to the All Things Private Practice Podcast.
Jo:
That’s awesome. You have a podcast too. You are also on Facebook, so you haven’t said too many different things there. Basically, if you are on a platform, so is Patrick, just go find him. <Laugh>, we’ll connect you with him in links in the show notes. Come find him on Facebook or Instagram. He said TikTok. I don’t know TikTok. That’s brave.
Patrick:
I never go on TikTok. I’m gonna be honest. <Laugh> My social media person just likes to post videos. I’m like, I’m not going on that app.
Jo:
<Laugh> leaving that alone. Thank you so much for your time, your energy, and your effort today, Patrick. This has been the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Until next episode, go be your awesome self.
Published on:
FEBRUARY 6, 2024
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