Courtroom Chronicles: Unveiling the Truth Behind Expert Witness Testimonies – with Nicol Stolar Peterson

Sometimes as an allied health professional, you might be asked or called upon to give evidence in legal proceedings. In this wide-ranging conversation, Jo is joined by Nicol Stolar-Peterson who is a clinical social worker and experienced expert witness who now coaches therapists to help them prepare for the court environment. 

In this wide-ranging conversation, Jo and Nicol discuss why Nicol says she feels blessed to be an expert witness, why we need to bust the myth about ‘overnight success’ and how Nicol’s practice has arisen from her own experience as an expert witness. 

You can connect with Nicol and find out more about her at https://www.nicolstolar.com/ or via the Kid’s Court & Counselling Centre at https://www.kc-cc.org/

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• • Purple Co 
  • Future Proofing Health Professionals Facebook Group 

If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com

Transcript

Jo:

Welcome back to the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Yeah, I’m excited. When I first thought about who is somebody I would love to interview, it was this person, but this was way back when I was writing my book. So this was just back in 2018, 2019, and we’d known each other for a couple of years, and I could see this person doing different, unusual, ballsy for one of a better ways, pioneering things. And since then, I have watched this woman’s career grow and develop and blossom. And I am really honoured to have Nicol on my podcast today, because she now gets to share how she got to where she’s from, where she started. And this is gonna blow your mind, but a little caveat before we start. Number one, we will talk fast. We just do, we are very good at talking fast. So this is not the podcast to put us on double speed. Just warning you. Second caveat is there will probably be some offensive language if you’ve got little people in the car or that hurts your ears. So you have been warned, you are welcome to fast forward. You are welcome not to listen, but please don’t tell me that you’re offended because I just want Nicol to tell her story, and I want my reactions to be the way they would come out of my face and my head. So who am I talking to? Well, Nicol, who are you and what do you put out to the world? 

Nicol:

Oh my goodness. Hi. My name is Nicol Stolar-Peterson, and I have been a therapist for, I don’t know, since 2009 ish. And I have found that I am not a therapist who wants to spend all of their time doing therapy. So I have branched out and used some skills and some talents that have come my way through different types of work that I’ve done. Court is my specialty. I have loved court for a long time, and the first time I went to court, I didn’t love it, but let’s clarify that. And so that’s what’s kind of weird about me in the therapist world that makes me a little bit odd is because I’m that court chick. I have spread my wings and added some different streams of income. And what I always come back to is kind of just this calling and love for court and then looking out and trying to help therapists when they have court kind of knocking on their door. And so I’ve been really blessed. I just finished my doctorate this summer, thank God it’s over <laugh>. And it’s really hard working on that when you’re working full-time with kids. But yeah, so I’ve just been blessed to know you since we first met at the most awesome conference.

Jo:

Nicol:

My gosh. So time flies. So I’m just happy to be here and I love listening to you and I love what you share with the world. And I’ve also seen, I think the fruits of your labour, which has been some of the folks in our community who’ve really benefited from your guidance and your coaching and have been able to hear you and have watched them flourish. And that’s a beautiful thing. It’s really a beautiful thing.

Jo:

Thank you. I take that really seriously, but also with the grace and compassion that it’s delivered because you know, I’ve never been able to help all the people, but if I can help the people helping the people, then I feel like I’ve left the planet in better shape than when I came into it. So I appreciate that, Nicol. So when you say you’re the court chick…

Nicol:

<Laugh>

Jo:

What do you go to court for and what do you do? Like, what’s the point of you being called into court?

Nicol:

So I do a few different things. And so I have worked as an expert witness since about 2015. Prior to that, I went to court as a fact witness where I was the social worker who had information about something. And I would essentially share those facts in the courtroom. Now, as an expert, I’m providing opinions, and that’s based upon my training education experience and providing those opinions. I tend to find most of my work in the civil court, so that’s gonna be like lawsuits versus not as many in criminal court. There have been some family law court cases and then also just a few that are considered dependency court. So where they would hear like a foster care case. So when I get hired on a case, I’ll get hired by either the plaintiff or the defence.

And I do a review of the case. I am providing opinions, and then I either am writing a report, testifying in a deposition, or like this morning I was actually testifying in trial. And so it just kind of depends. But I always tell people, it doesn’t matter which side hires me, because the truth is the truth. And I really love investigating, digging in and looking at everything. And so being able to testify about what the standard of care is and whether I’m talking about child welfare or the standard of care in the clinical setting as a therapist, I just enjoy that. And I’m always appreciative of the information that I get to share. And you get to teach and you get to teach at that level in a courtroom the importance of what this work is and what it’s supposed to look like. And so I love my work. And then I have been coaching therapists for, I don’t know, probably seven years now. For when they have to go to court. Not telling them what to say, but just helping them prepare for that environment they’re just not used to.

Jo:

Yeah. And I know that there’ll be people listening to this. You don’t have to be a therapist to get information out of this today. ’cause I can assure you, I’m not a therapist, I’m a rehabilitation counsellor. And I have used Nicol’s information. I have bought her products and services and it totally transformed my own, what we call here an Australia medico legal expert witness preparedness, and confidence. And it just helped me make sure that my skills were being used correctly, not not just by me, but by the court ’cause let’s face it, when you’re an expert witness, your job is to the court, not to the people who hired you. Speaking to that a little bit ’cause everybody goes, what do you want me to say? What am I supposed to say? What notes am I supposed to provide? How do I keep these people who are gonna pay me happy? And it’s like, Ooh, you’ve missed the point.

Nicol:

Right. And it’s always the truth. And that’s the easiest thing to do. The case does not rely on your shoulders as much as somebody might put that pressure on you. If you’re testifying as, let’s say a therapist, you’re the treating therapist, your job might be at that point after you’ve received consent to be able to even share these records, right? To be able to speak about what the facts are of the case and what the facts are of the treatment that you’ve been providing, so on and so forth. But you’re not providing opinions. You have a preexisting relationship with your client, therefore you’re inherently biased. And that’s not a bad thing. That’s actually a good thing. And that’s how we actually do even better work as therapists ’cause we’re aligning with our clients, we’re walking with them. So of course there’s some bias where things change when you switch over. And if you’re doing expert witness work, there’s no pre-existing relationship. There’s a very small percentage of folks who actually do the treating expert work. I don’t even touch that. ’cause I think it’s too hard. I’m like, no thanks. I just stick to one or the other.

Jo:

I won’t touch it. Confusing. It’s a duality that I don’t like.

Nicol:

Yeah, exactly. So it’s one or the other. So as an expert, it’s really this ability to take all of your experience, all your training, your education, and to do an assessment. You’re looking at the information and you’re trying to help the court. So you’re essentially their witness and you’re saying, I’m here to tell you that it’s my opinion, that this did or did not meet what the standard of care is if something did or did not meet what was needed or what should have happened. Or in fact, if it had been done correctly, here’s what it should have looked like. And then you take them through those steps because again, it’s not like the bench officer, the judge has time to run out and do an investigation. What we’re doing is, honestly, we are providing the information that they don’t have time to go get. They’re relying on us to give them factual information. And that information is expected to be helpful to the court. And so it has to be done clearly. It has to be done in a way that makes sense to them. It’s really interesting. And so I really do think it’s a blessing. Like I think it’s an honour. I’m really grateful that I get to do that work and be in that setting because again, jury or not that that judge is looking for information. And so being able to convey it in a way that makes sense, being able to offer those opinions, I feel blessed to do the work. So I’m grateful for it.

Jo:

Yeah. And I think that’s one of the things for me as well, getting to that point. ’cause I’ve done a lot of medicolegal work here in Australia and I used to have a reputation for doing it for the big insurance companies. But that’s just where the referrals were coming from. But now my business does a lot for the plaintiffs. Has it changed the way we do the work? No, it doesn’t because the truth is the truth.

Nicol:

The truth is the truth. Yeah. And the numbers just shift. And so there’s times when I’ll be working on more defence cases, and there’s times when I have more plaintiff cases and they’ll say, oh, what’s your percentage? I’m like, I don’t know. If I did percentages, you know, I probably wouldn’t be a social worker <laugh>. So I have to literally get out my calculator and add it up and be like, oh my gosh, it’s, it’s 60-40. But again, in one week I can work on a defence case or a plaintiff case. It doesn’t matter. ’cause The truth is the truth. And, I think the blessing has been the times I’ve been fired. Let’s talk about that. I appreciate being fired at times from whether it’s a law firm or specific attorney, because they’re expecting me to be a hired gun, and that’s just not what they’re gonna get.

And I try to explain that at the beginning. It’s in my contract, it says that you’re not paying for my opinions, like you’re paying me for my time. And yet there’s still a few folks that don’t quite understand that, or they really believe their case is a winner or whatever that is. I can’t climb into their heads, but when they are frustrated with me and they’re saying this, this is not what we paid for, in my head, I’m hearing you thought you were buying somebody. You’re not buying me. And I’m happy to part ways with you. So I do take it as a compliment. I usually have a little bit of shock and awe when it happens. And then I kind of have to laugh. I’m like, okay, thanks. ’cause It’s, I’m glad we are parting ways

Jo:

And the way I’ve been able to reframe that. ’cause I used to get horrified and then it’s not fair and you’re doing it wrong. But then it’s like, actually you are advocating the best way you know how for your client. And that’s awesome. That’s what they’re paying you for, for your advocacy. I don’t have to be a part of this. Right. I can choose to step away from this because you can’t just ignore pages seven through 17 right? <Laugh>

Nicol:

The facts, the actual evidence. Which is what is so amazing to me. Because then I look at an attorney and I think, oh my gosh, you’re just gonna dig your heels in. And then, you know, I might feel a little concerned for their client, but that’s not my position. I just back out of it and wish them well. And so I’m very, very upfront whenever I get retained, like, just so you know, heads up, I’m gonna be honest with you. I’m gonna like to tell you things you may not wanna hear, but you’d rather hear it here than in a courtroom. Right? So I’ve just been fortunate. I think that I’ve worked with enough great attorneys, honourable attorneys, ones that really care about their clients and the results and that they’re gonna do a good job when they select me or whoever they select that plays into it because they wanna do a good job. And so I’m grateful for that. But yes, I also don’t mind being fired ’cause that probably means it wasn’t a good fit.

Jo:

Yeah. Good. Good. I love the way you can approach this with such a matter of fact attitude. I can assure everybody who’s listening to this for the first time, if you don’t know Nicol, this is not her putting this on. This is not a defence mechanism. This is not her being, you know, unreasonably detached. This is just who she is. It’s just like, it’s not my job, not my circus, not my monkeys. And I think, even early on when you started doing this work, and you were very clear when I first met you, I don’t like the therapy. I don’t want to do the therapy. So can you take yourself back to that moment? ’cause you went to social work school for a reason, right? You went to social work school. What did you think you would be doing as a social worker?

Nicol:

So as a social worker, because I thought, you know, I’m gonna go work at Child Protective Services, I’ll probably only stay a few years. I stayed almost 12 years, and I thought I would be spending more time with kids and I was really spending more time with the adults. And so that was kind of shocking. And so <laugh>, I was like, I wanna work with kids. And then what I realised about the therapy piece is if I wanna work with kids, it’s when my kids are out of school. And that doesn’t work. Because one of the biggest reasons, if not the biggest reason, that I left Child Protective Services was I wanted to see my kids grow up. And so what I realised is the clientele that I really wanted to work with, they wanted to come at those same hours.

And that was just not gonna work. And so I took what I had already learned from the work I’d done, and then took the time because I had had a relationship with a law firm and talked with them about what it would be like if I got into this work. And what I have found is, one, it’s definitely my calling. And then two, it’s flexible around my kids’ schedule because the rest of it will all go away at some point, right? But the kind of kids that we raise and who we are in life. And I do believe who we are in business is who we are in life. It will matter. And it, and so because of that I am able to 90% of the time move my work and schedule around my kids and still feel like I’m doing what I wanna be doing, what I need to be doing, and what’s my calling.

And so that flexibility is, I think, my most cherished asset. And when you talk about being matter of fact, I’ve gotten more and more, I’d say matter of fact because I’ve seen the worst of the worst. I mean, I’ve had child homicide cases that I’ve investigated in person, I now still see them on paper through lawsuits. I’ve seen the ugliest of the ugliest of the world, and I’m so grateful that I get to do the work that I do, even though I’m still looking at a lot of the darkness. But knowing that if I did go into therapy, the hours just don’t mix. And I still have actually a handful, they’ll be upset if they hear this. I do have a handful of therapy clients that I see that are very flexible and are willing to kind of work with my schedule.

And I love it because it’s refreshing compared to like this dark child abuse work that I’m always looking at. ButI do  love working with them, and that’s really refreshing, but I can’t extend that much energy in that way, 20, 30 hours a week. It’s easier for me to be doing this different brain work, if you will, this different investigation. And typically in my yoga pants and my flip flops, <laugh> and my hair is usually in a mum-bun. And so again, like what fits? But to me, the biggest asset, and I wanna say you and I talked about this when we first met. And it was the idea of flexibility and kind of what do we cherish? What do we want? And there were things that we couldn’t even dream of yet, or at least I couldn’t yet. And it took me a long time. I’d be like, oh, <laugh>, that’s what they were talking about. <Laugh>. That’s what that was.

Jo:

And it’s just delightful that you can kind of go back to that conversation that we had in 2015 and actually take it seriously. This is the value of coaching people when the coach is actually coaching you, not befriending you. So that you can actually help hold people accountable to what they say they want to do. And I think it’s one of my gifts to the world is this is what you said you wanted, has that changed? Or let’s figure out what it is that you really want. Rather than what are all the conditions and conditional thoughts you’ve got about what you’re supposed to want. So that is my nice segue because one of the things I really want you to share with us is a few years ago when you decided I’m gonna do this court work, I wanna become an expert witness, and it’s gonna be about child protection. And I remember the conversation where you said, this is gonna be dark, this is gonna be heavy, but I need some additional income while I’m getting this up and running. I don’t want it to be anything to do with the therapist world. And I went, Ooh, this is brave. What is she going to do? So what did you do?

Nicol:

So I started being a consultant for Rodan and Fields. And I loved it. It was so light. And everybody’s like, this doesn’t even make sense. And I met some of the kindest, most wonderful business-minded women and men who were building passive income. And I did it, and I loved it. And I literally just backed off of it because my expert witness business is so busy that I really do need to give it all of my focus. But I did it, I wanna say seven years or eight years. And it was this beautiful passive income. It made people happy. I built a team of amazing mums who also were building passive income, and everybody’s got great skin now.

Jo:

Eyelashes. The most amazing serum

Nicol:

So I literally just gifted my business to the person above me who has been, I would say, caring for it for me. Because when I was in my doctorate, I was like, man, I don’t have time to make this phone call. Or just little tiny things that people needed and I wanted them to feel cared for. So I would tell them, talk to Terry. So Terry has been doing that, and I said, I wanna gift you my business, so she will now take my consultants and my customers, and I have a nice little business going. And everyone was like, I can’t believe we’re just gonna walk away. I’m like, yeah, but it’s not my time. It was beautiful. And it was this beautiful vehicle that just honestly gave me a break.

And I loved it. The conventions were fun and full of energy and, and I still have such good close friends that I met through this network that I never would’ve imagined. I like selling skincare. It seemed so cheesy. And what I was so absolutely shocked, blessed with and surprised with is that I learned so much about business building. And relationships and following through on your word and what it was like to stand behind a product that is tested and proven. And, you know, it’s so relatable to what we do in our work. And so I loved it. I loved it. And I literally just texted somebody this morning. I’m Marie Kondo-ing in my life right now. So, <laugh> lots of things are going because I’m getting kind of laser focused on just the next 10 years and what it’s gonna look like.

Nicol:

And that means that I’m still a customer of Rodan and Fields, but I’ve given my business to Terry, who’s amazing. And then I’m also moving aside therapist court prep. And I’m going to be kind of harvesting that off and working with a business school bootcamp and letting them have that access, which they already had purchased through the court policy. Now any boot camper can have that because it’s just part of bootcamp, which is beautiful, and I love that. And so I’m just moving things, I’m kind of clearing the decks right now, but I’m forever grateful. And if anybody ever second guesses, like trying something different, I would encourage them, try it, and please expect it not to just take off. And it’s not, tomorrow you’re a millionaire and then you get the car.

That’s insane. You know, that’s just madness. It’s just so ridiculous. Like, I love that picture of Jeff Bezos in his garage or whatever with the messy desk. Because that’s what it is. Anybody who’s selling you the sparkles and the unicorn, the rainbow, like, oh, overnight you can do this and you can have a nine figure practice and all the retreats and all the crap. That’s so unethical. There’s work to be done. There’s work to be done. You need a coach who’s ethical like Jojo. Because she’s gonna hold you to your feet to the farm and be like, Hey, didn’t you say <laugh>? And that matters when you get busy and you are trying to do all the things to have somebody whose only focus is to help you build your business in an ethical, smart, flourishing way.

That is a gift. And if somebody needs to hear that message today, I hope they hear it work with Jojo. I have watched her work miracles, and I don’t mean miracles like overnight, you’re gonna be a millionaire. What I mean by miracle is people who I did not think or know that they have the capacity to flourish and grace of God, Jojo got her hands on them, <laugh>, and they’re producing and they’re getting it done. And they are, you know, being organised and they’re being thoughtful and they’re putting good stuff out in the world. That’s what it’s all about. So don’t be scared to try something new, but also like, don’t expect overnight to be like, oh, I’m gonna be a millionaire. ’cause that’s dumb.

Jo:

Thank you. It is dumb. Don’t believe the Instagram hype. Anyway, we could have a whole great big conversation about that <laugh>, but what I wanna help people understand now is Nicol is talking to us like this fully formed next version of herself. But we have actually talked about an eight, 10 year history here that has allowed her to go, social work is my calling, but I love kids but don’t necessarily like the adults. Adults don’t really like agency, don’t want to be doing the therapy every day, all day, every day. My family is super important. What am I good at? What do I love to do that’s gonna help me meet the needs of my family, but still nourish me on the inside? Ooh. I’m gonna become an advocate for really good social work. Because let’s be clear, that’s what Nicol does in court, right? You’re not an advocate for the defence or the client. You’re an advocate for really good care. Am I right? She’s nodding

Nicol:

I’m nodding my head. And I’m also thinking, because I spend a lot of time in court, like explaining the difference between standard of care versus regulations and best practice. Best practice is what we all aspire to. What the standards are typically are much lower. They’re like bronze level. Right? But that’s all that’s really required is bronze level. And this is in most careers, right? Bronze level care says you see a client or whatever, you write a note and you follow your code of ethics and blah, blah, blah. And then there’s that best practice piece where it’s what we aspire to be even better. And so I spend actually quite a bit of time in court explaining the difference and how we like this is the must, right? The bronze level is the must. I wish gold was the standard.

And then let’s talk about best practice and what that should look like and how that can help kids and how that can help all of us. But if we can’t even get to that point where we’re meeting the basics, right? We have bigger issues. And so there’s a lot of time spent on that. And then I would say my advocacy comes in with my nonprofit, which is not going away, that I’m very proud of. Kid’s Court has been around since 2014, 2015. And it’s free. And it’s for any kid who’s been a victim or witness of a crime, we prepare them for court. We don’t discuss the case. We just get them ready for the environment. And we do a lot of things like, you know, just exposure and trauma reduction. And then if that goes well, we might move them into a real courtroom to practise and then they have their case.

And then with grant money, we have probably 30 kids who are in therapy right now for free. And we utilise central counselling services. They’re one of our number one contractors for that. And they do amazing work. And so Kids Court is really where I’d get that opportunity to advocate for kids and for them to hopefully leave court feeling stronger and taller and feeling like they had a chance to have their voice heard. And so Kids Court is really my passion. I don’t have any income from it. I do that somewhere else. Kids Court is really about just helping the kids in our area and even extended areas be able to have that day and not have it be more traumatic. And, and instead hopefully they’re leaving feeling like, whew, I did it.

And so Kids Court recently just had an additional fund from a sweet girl named Gia who passed away. And she after her passing raised over $90,000, I think close to a hundred. And so we’re gonna be working with our local rape crisis center to offer them those services for free therapy. And again, we’ll be contracting that out. But there’s so many ways to advocate and to do what we wanna do as far as who we wanna be in the world and what we wanna offer. And when there’s limitations, I think there’s ways to work past those or obstacles. But again, the benefit of somebody like Jojo’s Brain is the ability to look at the logistics, right?

Because I think many of us are dreamers, I’m a dreamer. Oh, I like the idea of so many things. And then I stop and then I say, okay, what would this really look like? What would a day of this look like? What are the true logistics? What’s really possible? And that’s where coaching can be so helpful, because it can be hard for many of us ’cause our brains are all over the place and all these ideas, which is great. But honing them in and then coming up with a plan and really looking at what my real day look like? That’s hard. At least it’s been for me, it’s been really hard. It’s gotten better over time. But again, what does it logistically sound like? Is it something that I wanna do? Do I really wanna spend those kinds of hours? And so that’s that hard part about what clients we wanna see. When would we see them? Where would we see them? Does it make sense? And how much can we do of that until we’re depleted and we have to, you know, either reset or how do we avoid that? There’s so much that goes into it. Right. Just trying to figure out where the time is spent. 

Jo:

Yeah. I think marketing coaching has done a disservice. By telling everybody how easy it is. There are easy principles to follow, but you’ve gotta know the principles. And then you’ve actually gotta have somebody or some way of getting those principles into yourself because they will bring up your own stuff. Yeah. There will be barriers, there will be things you don’t like. No therapists, especially social workers, you’re a little bit different. I’m not in it for the money, not in it for the money. I’m not in it for the money. I’m not in it for the money. I’m here to help all the people. But then when I start digging into it, it’s like, why are things not moving? And why? ’cause I need the money. I haven’t paid my bills. I’m this far behind on debt. Oh, I never pay anything on time. And I’m like, and you are wondering why your clients aren’t showing up? 

Nicol:

Most money work is so important. Money work is like, if there’s one other thing that has to be done, it’s the money work. It has to be it. You have to look at your money story and whatever is attached to it, whether it’s shame or grand deal, whatever it is. But everybody has a money story. And that shows up in our work. And I can’t count how many times people have tried to shame me. Oh, how much do you charge an hour and you’re a social worker? And, and literally you hear the word social work and you think poverty/poor, it should be this, this, this. And I think, no, actually I’ve spent a lot of time, energy, and education and training learning how to be really, really good at what I do.

Nicol:

And I can honestly say I am really good at what I do. So because of that, I feel just fine charging my hourly rate so that it doesn’t bother me at all. So when, for when people in our community start shaming each other for whatever it is around money, automatically, I’m like, you might as well wave a huge flag that says ‘I have money issues’ because, and I need to shame you for it, because that feels good. You’re gonna get deleted real quick ’cause that’s not healthy. 

Jo:

I know you feel like you put some good vibe juju out there into the wall, but the rest of us are seeing it going Don’t touch. Yeah. Walk away <laugh>.

Nicol:

No, thank you. I do. And I do this, I still have a kid that circles back to me sometimes for therapy. And we, we say, no thank you. And we put our hand on our heart and when somebody’s coming at you with that, and I just say, no thank you. And so they look at me kind of crazy sometimes ’cause they’ll be saying, oh, I need you to do this, that. And I say, oh no, thank you <laugh>.

Jo:

Gorgeous. No thank you <laugh>. And I just, and it’s almost like tapping. ’cause you literally put your hand on your heart and it doesn’t let it in ’cause otherwise you’re soaking that crap up. I’m like, no, thank you. Like that’s not mine, that’s yours. I don’t wanna do that. So I do a ‘No thank you.’ So a ‘no thank you’ is very, very helpful to me. And it might be to others, especially if people are trying to give you something that you don’t want or need. And I haven’t asked for it, I haven’t asked you to shame me, but thanks for the free shaming, I guess <laugh>.

Nicol:

I’m good. You go ahead and hang on to yourself. Like I’m good. All good here. <laugh>.

Jo:

Thank you for the free shaming. Yeah. Otherwise known as free coaching <laugh> Anyhoo that was not where we were going with this. So Nicol, your expertise is growing. You’ve really decided that the next 10 years is gonna be all about this, all about taking your court work into an advocacy that you do there. You’re gonna build a team of people who can do this with you. So if people want to learn more about who you are and what you do, and where the hell they can get on this therapist court prep thing before it disappears, where do they go to find you? How do we find you?

Nicol:

If you need help and you are in our world and you just shoot me an email and tell me, kind of give me a little blurb about what’s going on. I can usually find some time to reach out and say, there’s either something I have or there’s somebody I’m gonna refer you to. So you can go to NicolStolar.com which is really simple. N-I-C-O-L-S-T-O-L-A r.com. And that’s my expert witness website. You can go there and if you are interested in Kid’s Court and Counselling Centre and you’re thinking you’d like to donate a million dollars, I see you <laugh> That is kc-cc.org. And so you can find me at either one and just tell me how you heard about me and what you’re kind of looking for and what you do.

And then I will do my best to try to assist and or refer you if that’s what’s needed. Sometimes it’s just a quick question and I can knock that out really quickly. I do that quite often. I’m like, you don’t need a consult, let me just knock this out real good. And then there’s other times where I’m like, oh wow, we need some time <laugh>. I’m not gonna give up on helping our community because we really don’t get the preparation in school for court. And that’s really why therapist court prep, you know, became a thing because there was just this constant need. And so luckily there, there seems to be more of a conversation about court ’cause it’s a very litigious time. And so I would just say to everyone, like, it’s one of those things that you just can’t pretend like it doesn’t exist.

Everybody should have a court policy in their intake packet. It should be discussed. It might even need to be on the front page of your website, whether or not you are willing to do any court letters or any of that. And just so that when people are shopping and trying to figure out who’s a good fit, if that’s not something that you want, why not be really clear about that on your website so that it’s one less person that maybe is wasting their time doing a consult or even your time doing a consult. But you can still find me at nicholstolar.com and feel free to reach out. I’ve been really blessed to do this work for this amount of time and as I extend and build my new firm which will be active come January 1st. And we’re still naming it. Hopefully that’ll happen this weekend. I’m on one of my retreat weekends, so hopefully, we’ll have that by the end of the weekend.

Jo:

And we will put links to Kids Court and Nicol’s website on the show notes or come find me on Facebook or join the Future Proofing Health Professionals Facebook group, which is free and I’ll make sure that I can get that information to you there as well. I wanna say a huge thank you for you gifting your time, your knowledge, your expertise, and for letting me take everybody on a history lesson. Just so we can start to apprehend them of this overnight success crap that is floating around. And let people know that when you do the right work at the right time, when you spend the time working out who you are, what’s important to you and why that’s important to you, then you can have a lifestyle, not just a business, but a lifestyle that helps you flourish. So before we go, my next extremely and last extremely important question, when we get to meet each other again in real life and we’re in a cafe, what coffee will you be ordering?

Nicol:

Will I be ordering? Okay, so I had to move to decaf. It’s so embarrassing.

Jo:

I am embarrassed right now.

Nicol:

Oh dude. Caffeinated was making my heart race. But I love coffee. I love the smell of it. I love the taste of it. So it depends, I’ll drink a decaf with some stevia, maybe a little bit of almond milk. That’s happiness right there. It’s kind of like a cafe con leche depending on where you are. And I can also do that iced but I love the smell of coffee. Like I just had a cup probably an hour ago <laugh>. I missed the days when this used to give me energy. And it’s really a treat for me now. To me it’s like a dessert because I just can’t do like the hardcore caffeine anymore, which is so sad. But I love it. And I know you love some coffee, so that’ll be the coffee we’ll be drinking

Jo:

<Laugh>. Beautiful. Oh, this has been so much fun. And as always it is very, very short. But thank you again. And this has been the Entrepreneurial Clinician podcast and I am now gonna go and have <laugh>, double macchiato and almond milk because my brain just stopped working completely <laugh>.