Navigating the Challenges of Authenticity and Metrics in Healthcare – with Paul Inglizian

There is no doubt that being an allied health professional is rewarding yet challenging. However the metrics often imposed on health professionals by the organisations they work for can make it even more difficult and contribute to burnout within the profession. So how do you balance authenticity and metrics with service delivery in a way that is sustainable? That’s the one of the topics discussed in this wide-ranging conversation when Jo is joined by Paul Inglizian. Paul has a Master of Social Work degree from the University of Southern California and has extensive experience in clinical supervision. 

You can connect with Paul Inglizian via his website at Hope Coast Counseling. 

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Future-Proofing Health Professionals Symposium 2023

If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com

Transcript

Jo:

Well, welcome back to another episode of the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. And I kind of got my excited Jo Pants on today because this is an interview I have wanted to do since about 2015 when I first met Paul. And I’ve wanted to get to know him and understand why he has stuck it out in the field of social work. Because so many of us talk about leaving the field or we talk about the churn and the burn, but we have the opportunity today to learn from somebody who’s been doing this for a little while. And I’m really curious to dig deep with you, Paul, to find out what made you stick it out. But who is Paul and what the heck am I talking about? Paul, who are you, how did you end up here, <laugh>?

Paul:

That’s a good question. I sometimes ask myself that too. Well, let’s see. I’m, I’m Paul and I’m a licensed clinical social worker. And I’ve been in the field since gosh, for last, over the last 30 years when I was licensed. So I’ve seen a lot of things. And before being licensed, I work in all different capacities with the hospital and with different agencies as well too. So yeah, I was attracted to social work. In the very beginning I was pre-med. I thought I wanted to be a doctor, but I discovered quickly that I don’t like blood. I don’t like cutting into people. I don’t mind cutting into their mind in the sense of talking to them and drawing things out. And that really appealed to me. So I changed my major to pre-med psychology and then I thought I wanted to go into psychology.

But then when I was working on a crisis unit, I met a social worker there and, and he was very vivacious. He was an excellent person, somebody who really was somewhat of a mentor to me. And so that convinced me to take a look at social work cause I didn’t even know about social work. I wasn’t on my radar. And I opened up the catalogue for social work and it was like that spoke to me. Working with marginalised persons who have been abused or don’t have the resources who are struggling. And that just talked to me somehow. It just resonated with me and I thought, thought this is it, this is what I want to do. So that was the beginning of my education of going into that field. And I started out in the medical field cause I really enjoyed that.

I enjoyed working in trauma. So I worked in the emergency room helping the staff when there was multiple trauma that involves car accidents or suicide attempts. And so I would render services to the patient who was being worked on by the trauma team or try to identify that patient. Then have the family mobilise to provide support, crisis intervention skills and resources. And we called ourselves adrenaline junkies because it was just really high tech. And that was my foray in the trauma way back then. And ever since I’ve been involved with trauma and working with persons who have experienced trauma in their lives as well as anxiety and depression. Currently today, I am a psychotherapist. I provide services to mostly adults, although I work with adolescents as well too. And I focus on areas, as I say, of trauma, anxiety and depression.

And I also have been doing this for a long time is consulting and contracting with various nonprofit agencies in Los Angeles County mental health facilities where there’s a gap in services where I can come in and provide services or take the reins of a program that’s going on so they don’t lose the leadership or they don’t lose the clinical supervision of their non-licensed staff or getting hours, that kind of thing. So that’s been sort of my gig that I kind of fell into it. I’ve loved that. I’ve loved the clinical supervision aspect of it a lot.

Jo:

Yeah. That’s been obvious to me in the almost 10 years that we’ve been watching each other over a giant ocean is that you’ve always into supervision. You are always talking about the organisations that you’re providing supervision for. And you’re always so positive about it. Not toxically it’s genuine. Like, I get to go do this today. Like, I actually get to go make a difference in the lives of people today. And that’s something that has always inspired me about you, Paul, is that that’s very much your frame of reference. Have I misunderstood that. Is that something that is a part of you?

Paul:

No, you’re reflecting that. I felt like I was looking in the mirror when you just said that <laugh>. It’s like, yeah, you’re right. I do. I like going and to agencies and helping. I like being empowering people because a lot of times in the nonprofit world can be very brutal sometimes working there’s high demand for paperwork, there’s high demands for productivity limited funds that are coming in. So based on the structure, I like to get in there and help people feel empowered, help leadership communicate appropriately and support their staff. And so I love that kind of work. And the bottom line is seeing people blossom. I think it’s not just so they become better therapists, but through the process of just becoming better people because in many ways, you know, being a therapist is you be your authentic self.

Jo:

Yeah. Gone are the days when I can imagine, you know, like 30 years ago when you started in the field and because you came from a medical background, it was kind of like, I have to have my social worker blank slate face. It was like, I’m just about to talk to somebody who’s been through the most horrific thing I could ever imagine waking up and experiencing today. But I’m not going to show any emotions. <Laugh>, has that changed? Are we now allowed to like show some emotion in our work?

Paul:

I think so. And a large part of that, there have been more changes that is of course from the more traditional roles where you’re supposed to be just a solid piece of rock and not show any emotion to being more interactive. Certainly. But I think it also comes with experience I see as clinicians gain experience and feel more comfortable with self-disclosure, with being more authentic. Certainly that I’ve seen that kind of change and that that comes from experience. Certainly.

Jo:

Yeah. Beautiful. You brought up one of the golden taboos of this work, self-disclosure. But I find it fascinating because I know with the medical stuff that I went through, you know, for those of you who don’t know I had cancer and I talk about it quite a lot. And one of the most difficult things for me was dealing with other health professionals. So it was bad enough <laugh> knowing that this stuff in my body that I didn’t put there could kill me. But the way I got treated by medical professionals was just so unfortunate. But when people were able to sit down without their notes in front of me, when people were able to meet me where I was at, where they were able to look me in the eye, where they were able to go, the reason why I do this work, Jo, is cause I wanna give people their lives back. That for me was the moment when I went, oh, maybe I can trust you. But, but like you said, that comes with experience. You can’t do that as a newly licensed person. So Paul, my discussion with you now is as a somebody who supervises, cause it’s not a skill you can teach, it’s not like you go A to B to C to D, self-disclosure. How do you help prepare health professionals to get comfortable with that?

Paul:

Well, I think recognising that this is really hard work and that you are going to be confronted with a lot of feelings. And I think therapists who begin certainly have a lot of anxiety when they start and they feel that they have to be perfect. They have to follow a certain model or a certain way of doing therapy when so much of it is just showing up for the client is, and I think you touched on it, I think so much of the help that clients get is that they’re being seen and heard that you’re holding space for them. And sometimes staff or clinicians forget that. They think the client is, they’re saying, I don’t know, they’re not doing anything. They’re not paying attention. They want to end early.

But the fact that you’re showing up every week and you’re holding a space for them is communicating that they have value, that you care about them. And many times therapists are always amazed when the client ends therapy. They think, oh, the client never wanted to be there, but the client goes like, thank you. You were there for me. I felt so supported. It’s like, what? You know, wait a second. Are you the same client I was seeing it’s because you were communicating that positive self-regard? You were communicating that, that you were holding a space and you were seeing the client and hearing the client and you were showing up even though the client may have been cursing you out several times cause they didn’t want to be there, but you were showing up. So I think that a large part of that is, and, and I think countertransference is huge.

I know we talk about it and it sounds like one of those like counter transference, you know, resistance. But it’s huge. I think we all have it. You don’t grow out of counter transference, you know, I still get countertransference so I have to check myself. And I think they always have to address that. How is the client making you feel? How are you potentially projecting some of your own issues into the situation? Or are you trying to save the client? You know, you’re not responsible for other people’s healing. But that comes up all the time. And in my group supervision right now, they’re always like, oh, I gotta remember, I’m not there to fix the client. You know, I can’t fix the client. I have to be there as a person, a conduit. I have to be there as an encourager and a resource person, but I can’t fix it.

Jo:

Such a difficult concept because the way a lot of us are managed outside of our own private practices or even inside of our own private practices. But and I’m not just thinking of social workers now, I’m thinking of physical physio, physiotherapists, occupational therapists, speech pathologists, like all of us have had metrics placed upon us around client numbers and client outcomes, client numbers and client outcomes. So of course in our brain we’re going, it’s not my job to fix the client, but emotionally it’s like, but if I don’t meet this KPIs, am I gonna get sacked? Like, how do we navigate that, especially in new careers? How do we navigate these superimposed KPIs that are almost the antithesis of the work that we’ve gotta do? How do we navigate that? Paul <laugh>, that’s a simple question for you.

Paul:

Oh, well I can write a book on this maybe. <Laugh>

Jo:

Oh, I’ll hold you to that. <Laugh>

Paul:

I think it all starts with, you know, is realising you can’t be perfect. That you on some level you have to realise that there are these metrics. You can’t allow the metrics to define you. No, I think when a clinician gets to that point where they are focusing, I’m doing the best work I can given ’em the situation and I may not be meeting this productivity limit or this that I need to do, but I knew that I showed up for that client and I did the best practices possible. That I think is the key out of that. Because if you start worrying about those things, you could really be torn apart because of course the agency or the stakeholders they have to meet budgetary concerns and those kind of things.

And so that sometimes gets translated into a lot of stress for clinicians. But I think it’s important for them to keep good boundaries of themselves and know they can only do what they can do. I mean, sometimes clients cancel, sometimes during summer everybody forgets that they have to go to therapy, they have to go to school. So I don’t have to go to therapy anymore. So no one’s showing up. So the numbers sometimes are challenging that way, but I think clinicians have to really be able to always keep, it is part of really keeping your identity, I think is important in that respect. I dunno if I answered your question.

Jo:

No, no, you have because it’s not gonna be black and white. Right? And that’s the conversation I wanted to have with this is, and it’s not gonna be a one size fits all approach. And I think we’re starting to see that now. And this is one of the things that excites me about what the health industry for want of a better of a word, but I think it’s important for people coming through to understand that we know that productivity targets haven’t been helpful for therapeutic process. What we’re stuck with at the moment is we don’t live in a world where we have unlimited resources, right? So if all of us could have a client that came in that could see us for as long as they wanted, as many times as they wanted for as often a week as they wanted on their own time schedule, like that would be wonderful. But we don’t live in that world. So we have a responsibility to help the organisations that we work for manage the resources that are available. And I think that piece can get lost as well, because we have all these therapists going, I don’t like agency, it’s been too hard. I want all of my hourly rate. And you’ve been in private practice, you know very well that even as a private practitioner, you never get all your hourly rate, is that right?

Paul:

<Laugh>. Yeah, exactly. <Laugh>

I just want to comment. You’re absolutely right. I think it’s a fluid process. It’s a balancing. And I see that there are some days you have to work more. There are some days where you have to put out a little bit more energy or see clients a little bit later or, you know, or God forbid work on your notes on the weekends, you know, but that has to be the exception. That can’t be the usual case. And I think there’s a balancing, it’s just like, when does it make sense to you? Because if you plan it out, rather than feeling victimised by the schedule where it’s like, oh my gosh, yeah, I’ve talked to clinicians that work till eight o’clock and they’re working every night and they’re like, I go home and I go to sleep and I do it all over again and I can’t sustain that.

And it’s like, oh, you need to take control of that. Yeah, maybe you have to work eight o’clock on Monday, Tuesday, but you can’t do it every time. You know, how can you set some boundaries that’s meaningful for you, but also supportive of the agency? And I think that’s not easy. Like you were going like this. It’s sort of a fluid process and, and it depends on a lot of different issues, but I think in order for sus the client for therapist sustainability, you have to have those kind of boundaries.

Jo:

Wow. That’s incredibly empowering. Nobody as an early career health professional ever spoke to me about my personal boundaries. That did not start coming up for me until I was well into my career and starting to discover that burnout was something I was really good at. So this boundaries piece. It’s not just about the hard and fast rule of I am out of here at five o’clock every day. You also said something that was really quite poignant, which was the boundaries that make sense for you. So again, it can’t be prescriptive. How do you work with the people you’re supervising to help them create boundaries that make sense for them?

Paul:

I think it’s very individualistic. It can be different for maybe a single mum with two kids at home. Or someone who has more time, or someone who is has other is maybe going to school part-time. So I think it really is very dependent on the individual in terms of what their needs are. The important thing is that you feel good about it, because I think what happens is when you get sucked into the metrics and you start feeling resentful and then you start feeling ineffective and then you start burning out, it’s all it’s kind of a downhill battle. So I think it depends on how you are. And I’ve seen with different clinicians that I supervise, they have different routines. Some like to work late on two days a week. Others make it a point of just having one office day versus telehealth. And so I think it’s that balance. And nowadays, you know, we do telehealth, we do in person, we see clients at home. I mean, this is the way we operate. And so I think all those things are taken into account in of what works for the individual based on their needs. Not only just therapeutically, but like I say, their life needs.

Jo:

Yeah. No, that’s a great way to put it. So againyou are answering my question the way I hoped you would, but didn’t expect that you should, which was, it’s very individual. And we here in Australia, cause I’ve worked in work health and safety and, and return to work processes. And we are always looking for the prescription. What are the six things I need to do to make this better? What are the seven things I need to do to make fix this? And what is becoming apparent to me is that those things don’t exist for us to be able to sustain and do this work. We’ve gotta be prepared to find out who we are first. We’ve gotta know what it’s like to be able to stand up to the manager and go, I appreciate your disappointed Mr CEO that I haven’t met your performance metrics, but I can stand to you in front of you today knowing that I have done the absolute best thing for all of my clients with every sense of integrity. That that’s not an easy thing to do. Right? Paul <laugh>?

Paul:

No, no, it’s not. And good agencies recognise that. I’m affiliated with one was excellent right now. And I think when you go to your manager and you talk and you talk that way and you share that way in terms of how it’s going or where you’re falling short and the reasons behind and how you’re trying to address it, and managers respond to it appropriately that way. They’re not punitive. Now I’ve worked with other agencies that are really toxic and they don’t support that. But I think it’s so important to have that kind of support. And right now, the agency that I’m affiliated with is that they are so into their staff and listening and willing to help out and not be punitive or accusatory or shaming. Which is really scary that I’ve seen that in other nonprofits. But that happens, you know, in agencies where you see that kind of toxic mixture. So but I think that’s so important for managers to be able to accept that because yes, maybe the client, or rather the therapist is not meeting productivity, but you’re invested in that person. If they feel heard and seen, they’re going to continue being the best therapist they can be.

Jo:

Yeah. Absolutely. And in this current climate where there’s not enough clinicians like in Australia, we have such a talent shortage. And from all the job ads I see coming outta the US, you guys have a talent shortage as well. We have people not wanting to enter the fields because, you know, my generations have walked around going. Who wants to be a health professional? We’ve got doctors, you know, that really high suicide rates because of what they have to go through in residency, which is appalling. So we’ve got people who don’t even wanna enter the field <laugh> yet. And part of the challenge is how do we nurture our talent but still meet, you know, financial responsibilities? And I think this is a powerful conversation for those in group practice who have built group practices because they probably don’t even realise they’re starting to talk the way the agencies used to talk, right? So I think again, that comes back to all of us, regardless of whether we’ve got the title of manager or leaderwe’ve all gotta be checking back in with ourselves to kind of go, what’s authentic for me? But then understanding why your authenticity can get coloured because you’ve got all these other demands being superimposed on you. Well that wasn’t where I thought we would go in the first 20 minutes, Paul, but okay. <Laugh>. Let’s try and lighten things up a little bit. I’m curious to know what kinds of changes have you seen in the world of social work over the last 30 years? If you can cast your mind back to when you were a baby social worker to now, what kinds of things do are different?

Paul:

Oh, that’s a good question. That’s a very good question. I think in some respects things are a lot of things are similar in terms of quality, patient/client care dedication, integrity, professionalism. I think that one shift when I was starting, I’d work like these insane hours. Nobody talked to me about self-care or why it’s not a good idea to work 12 hour days, even though you’re only being paid for eight, but I’m committed, I’m a social worker, I’m gonna work and I’m gonna stay and do what I have to do. So I think that’s changed and that that’s maybe be for the better. You know, people aren’t doing that as much. And I think that I was definitely in involved in really feeling that way, feeling like being busy meant that that was good instead of, you know, working smart, working effectively.

It’s like the busyness quotient was, whoa, I put in the hours. This is great. I’m feeling super, instead of really dealing with the fact that, wait a minute, what am I doing to myself? Am I really being effective for clients or patients? Am I really taking the time to take care of myself? Do I really need to stay there for 12 hours? I don’t think so. I think I could be as effective or maybe more effective because I’d have more energy and I’d have more presence rather than running myself in there. So I think a lot of new social workers are saying that they don’t wanna work in certain capacities that are overwhelming. So I think there are some agencies suffering because, like you said, there’s a shortage of therapists, especially in community mental health. But I think the good point is that people are more aware of their boundaries and they’re more aware that this is difficult work and that they have a life work balance that’s important to maintain.

Jo:

And do you think that that will have an impact on client care?

Paul:

I think it will definitely. Yeah. I think it will have a client impact because I think if people are more satisfied and really taking care of themselves, then they’re going to be more present obviously and provide better services.

Jo:

Yeah. agreed. And it’s hard when you are caught. Cause I grew up in busyness is the badge that we all attain, right?

Paul:

Yeah,

Jo:

Yeah. That’s a generational thing for us. Busy meant we were productive, productive meant we were valuable, right? So people like you and I, we learnt to work really hard to earn acceptance or, and I mean, I’m projecting now, Paul, this is my story, I’m just sharing <laugh>, but we’ve got generations now who are going, I don’t wanna do it that way. You’ve actually shown me that that’s not the way to do it. And I think we all cut our teeth on high caseloads. We prided ourselves on being able to deal with the most catastrophic and difficult things in time. And then we sometimes we get a bit resentful when we’ve got these young whipper snappers turning up going, I don’t wanna do it that way. I don’t wanna do it that way. And I’ve coached a couple of private practice owners, like fairly large group practice owners, and they’re going, they just dunno how to work hard. They just dunno what to work hard. When I think the conversation is different. It’s like, no, they don’t wanna be us.

Paul:

Yeah.

Jo:

You think there’s some truth to that? Yeah.

Paul:

Yeah, I agree. I think that’s it. I think and I find myself doing that too, thinking, oh man, I stay till eight o’clock every night and they don’t wanna stay late. And, yes, it’s more they wanna have a work life balance. They don’t wanna feel that way. And I think we may have been ingrained to work with omnipresent, like you said, the busyness quotient was there. It’s like, if I’m busy, in fact, it reminded me a little of a meme, I think I saw like, you want people to think you’re busy, you’ll run. So you see this guy at a little video and he’s like running from office and just jogging. He’s not doing any work, but everybody thinks he’s working really hard.

That was kind of me I think back in the old days and running everywhere. And in a sense that’s good reflection of what I was doing is really not doing, being busy and feeling like I’m doing a lot and maybe coping with the trauma, trying to provide good services when indeed I would’ve been probably more present and more effective had I managed some of that. But yeah, you’re absolutely right. I think that instead of going like they’re lazy cause that is a sort of a label that the young people have. It’s like they’re lazy, they don’t wanna work, they want, they just wanna be paid, they want to go home. But that’s not the case.

Jo:

No, I don’t see that the case at all. I think we’re misunderstanding them and I think it’s. So you’ve been a social worker for a while. What excites you about the future of social work? Like what can you see opening up for social workers that are opportunities or differences? Is there anything?

Paul:

I think, in terms of community mental health is always in flux. There’s been some recent big changes in the way documentation and services are provided which has been quite different, in fact the changes just occurred July 1st. So I, I think there’s always ways that can always be improved. And so I think the future is how do we continue to provide good services without getting stuck in the metrics and everything like that. How do we manage, especially in community mental health where resources are limited, people have challenges accessing resources or transportation. There’s financial, there’s a whole slew of problems that are going on. So I think with regard to the future, I think is maybe being more comprehensive.

And I think there’s more of a movement towards that, not just mental health and then referring the case management, which is fine for resources or finances or housing, but really maybe having more of a joint approach to addressing all the needs of the client. Because there’s so many do domains that clients have. It’s just not mental health. It’s their physical health, it’s their spiritual health, it’s housing, it’s security, it’s school. And so without addressing it all, I think we’re operating in a vacuum. So I see social work, again, as being part of that process of really trying to be more pro comprehension, kind, comprehensive in providing services.

Jo:

Gosh, I love that. I wasn’t expecting you to say that. When I started learning about marketing and business development, it was all about specialisation. Nobody wants to go to the generalists, but my experience is I wanted my health professionals talking to each other and I got incredibly angry when they hadn’t. Cause I was like, I have to tell you this freaking story again. Like, I don’t wanna have to tell you this story again. And then there was situations where information would get lost or they’d spend half my time that the time allocation trying to find a right piece of paper. But if we had a social worker or any type of allied health professional who says, hang on a minute, you client have all of these needs.

Yes, you need support around your mental health, but that ain’t gonna change until we’ve got some housing security. Right? If you’re gonna be couch surfing, chances are we’re not gonna get to the root cause of your anxiety. So let’s work on both of those things and then to get you some housing security, we probably need to get you some financial security. So who do we need to get into your world to help you with that? And it’s like, oh my goodness, you’ve got all of these physical health needs that you haven’t had taken care of. You are not gonna be able to get a job to get the financial security to help with that housing security for us to be able to help you with your mental health until we start getting some of these physical needs taken care of. When we say it like that, it just makes so much sense. Right?

Paul:

Right. And, I look at social work in the community, but also in private practice. I think it’s important. I mean, I have clients and my private practice who have several needs like that. And I think you have to really address ’em on some level. Yes, you’re probably more focused on the mental health aspects of the client. But I think it’s important to take that into account. When I have a very depressed client, I’ll address nutrition. I’m not a nutritionist, but I’ll refer to nutritional support or psychiatry or some other support system if something’s going on. I just think that’s so important to buoy up the client that way because so much of it is feeding into what the presentation is of depression, let’s say.

Jo:

Absolutely. And I think that also helps us as the primary or the mental health clinician when we are working in that space to go, I don’t have all the answers all the time. And I think we’ve gotta become okay with that. I’m very okay with that now.

But there was a time when I felt like I had to be all things to all people. I had to have all the answers. You talked about perfectionism early for early career professionals. That was certainly my case. Have you had those experiences, Paul, where you felt like you had to know all the things for all the people?

Paul:

No. Never. Of course. <Laugh>, <laugh>.

Jo:

Thank you for laughing

Paul:

All the time. And I still fall into that trap of feeling that I need to know something. And it’s absolutely right. It’s a good reminder. We don’t know everything. We can’t be everything to everybody, but I think we put an incredible amount of stress on ourselves, especially as psychotherapists is to be somehow know it all and to say the right thing and address the right way. And, you know, I’ve been doing psychotherapy for over 30 years, and I still have to consult with my supervisor to check things out because sometimes I don’t always see it and I need that feedback. It’s like, oh, okay, I’m not processing this or this is going on. And so I think it’s good to know that you can’t, and that’s the beauty of this field is we’re always learning, right? Yes. We’re never gonna be like, I know it all, I’m perfect. I always say when I get to that point, then it’s probably time to retire, because it’s impossible to know it all and to feel like you have it down to a science

Jo:

<Laugh>. Yeah, absolutely. Humans are gonna be humans. <Laugh>, there’s no amount of AI is gonna replace us. You’ve touched on something that is incredibly important to me and part of the legacy of information I wanna lead into the world and that is the need – and I’m gonna use quite strong language –  the need for health professionals throughout their entire career to be engaged in what I call supervision. But in Australia, it doesn’t seem to have quite the negative connotation is what it does in the USA, but to have that person or people in your world that you go to consistently to check in with me. I’ve got this client and I reacted this way, good, bad, what do I need to work on? Where do I need to go? I said this to a client etc. It kind of concerned me when I learned that that wasn’t normal for USA based mental health professionals. Like once you get your supervision hours and you get your credentialing done, you’re kind of left to your own devices. That concerned me. In terms of your own safety <laugh>, can you speak into that as somebody who lives in that space?

Paul:

Oh, absolutely. I think that is probably a challenge I’m sure for business owners. You know, you start at you’re so busy and you’re so spread out. When you’re running a business where you’re running your own private practice, let’s say that it’s hard to make time for anything, especially if you’re also juggling home issues or you have children at home that can be really difficult. And worried about finances. I think that it probably falls to the wayside. You know, you just don’t have time to do that. But I think that part is so important. You’re absolutely right. It seems like it’s just a part of what we should be doing either, you know, meeting with a person on a regular basis, or sometimes there’s supervision groups or there have been for example, clinicians who’ve are coming back in the field that reach out to me for supervision, which is great.

I love it because I love working with licensed people who are wanting to either enhance their skills or wanna have that support. And so I do that also. And I love that because it’s a great way to provide service to the clinician and to really support the clinician. And I love it because then I’m always learning. I’ll learn from what I do, of course. So, yeah. I agree with you. I think there that there is a paucity of a view of having clinical supervision while you’re doing this work.

Jo:

Yeah. I think it’s so important and it’s just a cost of doing business. It’s a line item. It’s something that needs to go in there and should you pay it or should your employer pay it? I don’t think that’s the right discussion. I think the discussion is, am I doing it? And how am I gonna do it in a way that supports me? Because for me, it is about our health. We use our brains and our emotions. They are the tools of our trade. So if you are an electrician or a plumber, you will look after your tools, you’ll wash them, you’ll care for them, you’ll put ’em away, you’ll get cranky when we don’t put them back in exactly the right spot. How are we looking after the tools of our trade? And I don’t know how people are doing it without regular check-ins, supervision, consultation, talking about this stuff.So younger generational people coming through go make that change. Go make that the accepted way that health professionals do their work. Ego Jo and Paul. Yeah. <laugh>, we hand that bat on <laugh>.

So Paul, you just mentioned that you enjoy that level of interaction and consultation. How could people reach out to you? How do they get in touch with you?

Paul:

That through my website is great. And that would be Hope Coast Counseing all one word. Hope Coast Counseling with only one ‘l’. hopecoastcounseling.com <Laugh>.

Jo:

Yeah. He spelled wrong in Australia.

Paul:

Yeah, I know. <Laugh> Spelled wrong for you guys and the Europeans.

Jo:

Yeah. That’s actually really funny. Paul, thank you so much for you going deep with me again today and answering questions that you didn’t know were going to be asked. And what’s great is you’re gonna get to learn more about Paul. Cause Paul is actually a part of a panel at the Future Proofing Health Professional symposium. And he’s a part of a panel speaking into more of what we’ve talked about today. What is it gonna take for health professionals to keep doing this work? And we will be learning from Paul and another two people who have been doing the work for a little while. And the facilitator is a brand new, newly licensed clinician. So she’s gonna be asking awesome questions to help us prepare for our future. So Paul, thank you so much for today. It’s been a joy to spend some time with you now. If we were gonna go and have a coffee together in that cafe again, the one that we met at all those years ago, what would you be ordering?

Paul:

What would I be ordering?

Jo:

Yeah, if I was gonna take you out for a coffee. What would your coffee order be?

Paul:

It would probably a coffee with two at shots and with steamed half and half.

Jo:

Oh God, I have to write that down. I don’t even know. Was that even English? <laugh>, say it again.

Paul:

So it’d be a large coffee. So a brewed coffee. Add two, two shots of espresso.

Jo:

Oh, whoa. Okay. <laugh>. Yep.

Paul:

With steamed half and half.

Jo:

All right.

Paul:

Perfect.

Jo:

So I can now see how the European side of your genealogy has met with the American side of your genealogy in a coffee cup!

Paul:

Right.

Jo:

<Laugh>, that was fantastic. Paul, thank you so much for the conversation today.

Paul:

Well, thank you. It’s been a pleasure meeting with you and your amazing, and, and you’re great. So thank you so much for this opportunity.