The Entrepreneurial Synergy: Navigating Trust, Values and Vision in Business Leadership – with Chris Conley

Warning: this episode includes profanity, betrayal trauma and rape trauma so you may want to skip this episode, listen with headphones or listen at a time when there are no sensitive ears around.

It’s one thing to be an Entrepreneurial Clinician, but what is it like to work for one? In this episode of The Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast, Jo is joined by Chris Conley who is a Licensed Professional Counselor and serves as Clinical Director at Turning Point Counseling and Consulting in Virginia which is owned by Lisa Duez, a former guest on the podcast. 

In this episode, Jo and Chris discuss the role of a Clinical Director in a practice, the benefits of engaging a Clinical Director to look after your team, what it’s like to work for an entrepreneurial clinician, why he chooses to remain as an employee given that he has an entrepreneurial spirit and how to spot opportunities in the profession. 

Chris is also a co-founder of Clinician Connection, a group that exists to inspire, equip, and connect mental health professionals to collectively shape a brighter world. Clinician Connection is gearing up for its first-ever conference scheduled for April 18-19, 2024. This event will offer mental health professionals a unique opportunity to unwind, gain valuable insights, and connect with like-minded peers. You can find details of the Clinician Connection Conference here or find Chris on Facebook. 

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Purple Co 
• Future Proofing Health Professionals Facebook Group 

If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com

Transcript

Jo:

Welcome back to the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Now, my guest today is somebody you may never have heard of before, and that’s okay because I love to find emerging talent. I love to find people who I think have got some depth to their character, who are well thought of by their employers and by people in their community, and let them have a voice to help the rest of us who have been around for a while stop from becoming dry, shrivelled up and giving us new ways to think about things and basically keeping us on our toes. So I have asked Chris Conley. Now I’m gonna get Chris to introduce himself in a minute, but I know Chris through his boss. I’m just gonna put that out there in all transparency. I’ve seen Chris online, I’ve heard some of the things that he’s involved with. I know the questions I wanna ask this man. So stay tuned. But if you’ve got little people or if you’re offended by some cussing, you might wanna put some headphones in. Not suggesting that this is gonna be a cuss fest, but I want Chris to feel free to be able to answer questions in a way that are natural for him, because none of this is rehearsed. I actually don’t know what’s gonna come outta Chris’s mouth, so we’re just gonna take it from there. So, Chris, welcome to the podcast.

Chris:

Hi Jo. Thank you for having me.

Jo:

<Laugh>. Now tell me who are you and how did you end up on my podcast today? What brought you here?

Chris:

<Laugh>. Oh gosh. So let’s see the bullet points of who I am. I am a licensed therapist in the state of Virginia over here in the US I have worked in lots of different contexts in the mental health sphere. I’ve worked in the nonprofit sphere, I’ve worked in the faith community sphere. And right now, I work as the clinical director at a private practice here. We have two locations, about 20 therapists. And as you just said a minute ago, you know me through my boss, that’s Miss Lisa Duez, who you’ve done an episode with in the past here. And so I get to work with her as her clinical director. And we love what we do there. We really value running a practice that takes care of their therapists and makes sure their therapists are free to do what they’ve spent their whole life training to do without micromanaging and beating them up and making them worry. And that honestly comes with me and Lisa both having experiences in settings like that where your mental health deteriorates while you’re trying to help other people with mental health.

Jo:

Oh, Chris, there’s a whole episode there as well, and I think you have succinctly said that your mental health deteriorates while you’re helping people with their mental health. But we’re not going there today because that’s not the purpose of what I wanna talk to you about. So tell me, what does a clinical director do? How do you do that job? What is it?

Chris:

Yeah, I mean, for us, my job is to provide support for our therapists, however they need that, whether that’s clinical direction. I will do monthly case consultation meetings with our teams. I’d have an open door policy. You know, as long as I’m not with a client, pop your head in, ask a question, you can meet with me. And then I also kind of on the backend work on policies, which is like this really boring thing that nobody cares about. But it’s the stuff that keeps us safe and it provides guardrails so we don’t get any legal ethical trouble. So I do that stuff and then with Lisa, we kind of work together to dream about future stuff and the direction we want to go networking in the community. So that’s a pretty good sum of what I’m up to.

Jo:

Wow, it sounds like a busy role. So you mentioned that the business currently has two locations and 20 clinicians. So you potentially have 20 people asking you questions, is that right?

Chris:

Potentially, but they’re we’re very fortunate that we’ve hired pretty talented and motivated and driven people. And so thankfully that that burden hasn’t been to that extent, like ever. Really.

Jo:

Okay. I’m gonna challenge you there and suggest that you and Lisa have created a culture where people can feel like they’re supported and that they don’t need to be knocking on your door all the time. So if the role of clinical director didn’t exist in this particular business, what would happen to the business? Like, what would stop happening?

Chris:

I think if we didn’t have somebody functioning as clinical director, actually, I’ll reverse, and I’ll say it this way. One of the reasons that we felt the need for that, or Lisa felt the need for that is the practice grew from a solo practice with her. Then she brought on a couple clinicians. And just because it was growing and growing and growing, recognising as things get bigger, you need some guidance and you need someone who can kind of set the tone and both her and I do that as far as setting the tone and the culture. I was originally just on her staff as a clinician. And then as we were growing and that need came about, we talked, figured out a way to make that work. And without it, I guess what happens without it is a practice as it grows can become a wild, wild west scenario.

Like, so somebody over here is doing one thing and somebody over here is doing another thing. And because we run a private practice, there are legal ethical things that will ultimately fall back on Lisa or myself if there’s no guidance. And that could impact the clinicians as well. And then there’s the other things, especially that we think about in the entrepreneurial space like your branding, your reputation. So we really strive when we talk with our clinicians on how do we provide a practice where you can practise ’cause you are a trained clinician, you know your stuff, but also give you like very broad guidelines on what we’re striving for as far as our reputation for clinical care, our reputation in the community, and then just our reputation even for our clinicians as a place to work where you don’t hate your job.

Jo:

Oh, wow. <Laugh>. And I think that’s a wonderful summary. And one of the reasons why I wanted you to be on the podcast is somebody who’s employed. So you are working for somebody who created this thing and she’s now asked you to come on board in this role of clinical director. What’s it like? ’cause you’ve been in agency and you’ve been in not-for-profit, and you’ve been in faith-based organisations, so they have different cultures in them, right? So now you’re in a for-profit business that has a commitment to looking after your community. ’cause I know you guys are very, very committed to making sure your community is looked after, but also your team, right? So the whole money situation is a little bit different there. But what’s it like for you as an employee to come into this business and the person you are reporting to seems to have these entrepreneurial ideas and actions and wants them implemented <laugh>, tell us Chris what it’s like to work for an entrepreneur. That’s the question I’m trying to ask.

Chris:

<Laugh> I guess I’m gonna answer that by saying it kind of depends on what you’re talking about as an entrepreneur, right? Like, technically anybody who owns and runs a business can be called an entrepreneur. So when I think about our entrepreneurial spirit, which would be mine as well, I’m just not the head of the ship right now, right? 

Jo:

Yes,

Chris:

The thing I think that marks this kind of entrepreneurship is there’s passion behind it. There’s values, a moral compass guiding it. And like, yes, there is always gonna be mindfulness for profit and finances and going black or going red, and you cannot escape those things. But profit is not the sole motivation. And that’s a defining characteristic in the relationship we have is I wouldn’t have done it if I didn’t know where my boss’s passion and vision and all that stuff was. In fact, I’ve worked at places before where I was offered, Hey, you wanna pop up in the management chain? And I asked questions about vision and like, I was like, I don’t know that I can support that as in that level of leadership. So that’s foundational to the rest of the answer because trusting her integrity, her vision, her values. Because I respect her integrity, her values, her vision, it’s easier to follow. The other thing that’s important is she exhibits genuine trust in my judgement. And she does not micromanage me the same way. We don’t micromanage our clinicians. So I have the freedom to explore. I have the freedom to push back. In fact, her and I will often joke, she runs a hundred miles an hour, and I’m always the one that says, you need to take a breath and let’s talk about this first.

Jo:

Wow.

Chris:

Now that I don’t always, when that sometimes she’s like, no, you need to just keep running with me. But that is our dynamic often. I’m usually the one that’s says, Hey, let’s stop. Let’s think, let’s look at it this way before we just start going and making things happen. And because the trust is there between us and because we share similar values. In fact, we were just talking about this a couple days ago about how we may have different approaches and ideas and personalities, but because our values are more or less the same, that’s what makes our working relationship so smooth.

Jo:

Nice. You’ve brought up some things here. So there are many of us who have been leading businesses and creating different income streams. And I’ve got people in my world who it feels like everything they touch turns to gold. They’re the ones I emulate as being true entrepreneurs. The rest of us are kind of working it out as we go. And this concept of trust, right? And ’cause I know the true currency of our work with clients is trust. It’s not the exchange of dollars. If a client doesn’t trust you, they’re not gonna talk to you about what’s going on. And if you don’t trust the client, you are not gonna turn up as your best self to give them what they need. And we’d see it in marketing and we often get a nasty taste in our mouth when we feel trust is broken. So, the trust between you and Lisa is not just, it’s not just a checkbox, is it? If that wasn’t there, would you be able to do what you do?

Chris:

I don’t know that I’d be able to do it as freely or without stress or like, I have no very minimal stress. It’s not to say there aren’t things that can be stressful in the process if you have to manage something with a client or you have to manage something with a clinician. Like, but as far as overarching, like, am I doing a good job? Is my boss happy with me? I’m very fortunate not to wrestle with it because of that foundation. And that sets me free to be able to be more creative if I’m not worrying about, well, if this one idea I had is terrible, I’m gonna get in so much trouble. I mean, she might say, dude, knock it off. That one’s not working. But it’s not like there’s not this tension or this worry.

And so I think that’s what makes the difference, you know? And that didn’t come overnight. Before I started working as her clinical director, I was a clinician on staff. When I interviewed as a clinician to come on as a clinician, she talked about some things I think could be coming in the future. We could be needing a clinical director at some point, could be thinking about opening a second office and at some point probably gonna need some help. Is that something you’d be interested in? And then just over the time working there, we get to know each other, share things. I hope she values the work that she’s seen me do prior. I mean, I would assume so if she’s entrusting me with these things, so that comes over some time of building a connection. It’s not as simple as like, Hey, I’m gonna put you in this spot and then we’re gonna hopefully get along and it’s gonna hopefully work.

Jo:

Yeah, that’s great. So we often hear in this day and age people struggling to recruit. And then you’ve got group practice owners or people who are stepping into group practice ownership, worrying that their staff are just gonna take off with all their hard work and open up on their own. And let’s face it, there’s enough marketing online that could tell you it’s easy, it’s stress free. Go do it for yourself, get your whole billable hour rate in your own back pocket. What makes it worthwhile for you to stay as an employee? What are the benefits for you? Because you’ve obviously got skills and you’ve obviously got talent that people would want. So why do you do it? Do it as an employee?

Chris:

Yeah. So some very real, honest answers. After being in some pretty dysfunctional workplaces, I’m just happy to have a breath of fresh air and do something I enjoy. The nature of my job is a salaried position, so I’m not riding the wave of how many people did I see? How much am I bringing in? I can argue the point that I could probably make more money, even just at this practice with a split. But there’s that peace of mind. I get to do things that are fun and interesting for me because I’m not micromanaged. There’s a lot of freedom for like, if other things in my life need attention, as long as the other stuff gets done, I get a lot of flexibility with that.

And it’s not to say there will not be a time in the future where either we part ways or I do other things or roles rearrange into some other capacity. There’s always the potential for that sort of thing. But,another thing, again, just another really selfish answer for me is I’m in school right now working on my doctorate. So flexibility and steady pay, even if it’s not me maxing out my bank account, the risk that comes with making sure you max out your bank, I’m happy to not have to worry about those risks while doing that. And Lisa and I are starting another enterprise with this conference, which I’m sure we’ll talk about at some point, to know that I have a steady salary, so I can do that. That’s super helpful for me.

Jo:

That’s great. And I don’t think there’s anything selfish in that. Like, so you stop that judgement. Because I think too many clinicians start seeing the marketing and hearing the conversations about startup or private practice and, and they go, it’s gonna be easy and it’s gonna be quick. And I just put up my Psychology Today profile and suddenly all these clients are flooding in and that it’s like, yeah, no. And then if you’ve got other dynamics going on in your life, like doing a doctoral program, why would you not want something less stressful than riding the waves.

Chris:

Yeah, I don’t necessarily mean selfish as a, like, moral flaw. I just mean like, it really serves me well.

Jo:

So you’ve mentioned the conference and we will get there, but I think one of the questions I wanna ask is because you’re quite active in Facebook and you’re getting ahead around, what is it that this marketing world is, how do we need to turn up to market this conference? But then you also get to see some ways that clinicians might be acting or reacting or treating each other that makes you question, what the heck is this thing? And we’re not naming names, but I guess what has helped reinforce for you that if you decide that you wanna engage in an entrepreneurial way of thinking with this broader health professional community, what is becoming really important for you to hold onto?

Chris:

So for me, what makes entrepreneurial endeavours worth pursuing is adding value to other people. I’m not even gonna make a judgement on anybody. But there are folks who it’s more about like, I’m talented. I deserve to get paid. I deserve to. And I believe that for myself too. I think I’m talented and deserve to get paid, but my higher value is a skillset, a perspective that’s helpful for some people at least. So I should be investing in ways that bring value. Whether you’re talking about the clinicians at our practice, whether you’re talking about Lisa, my boss, I should be functioning in a way that brings her value, or you’re talking about this conference that we’re planning. I should be doing that in a way, not just, oh, I’m gonna plan a conference and make some money.

But that brings value to people. And I do think most people in this field start there. We wanna help. There may be a few folks that kind of start off with just kind of rotten motives from the get go. Although getting a master’s degree and a licence just to go get a job that doesn’t pay that great is not the best get rich quick scheme if you’re a devious. But there may be a person or two out there who, that’s their racket. But I think everybody in our field starts out with, the world needs help, or I have a passion about a certain struggle or a certain population. And then along the way you can lose sight of that. Maybe it’s just as simple as money gets tight. And I mean, everybody does have to worry about that. Money gets tight. You gotta get some money. Maybe some of your own demons show up and get in the way. Maybe ego gets in the way. If you don’t check your ego, then your ego’s gonna get you in trouble. And so then you can slowly cross into a place where I’m here to serve other people. I’m here to help heal people. I’m here to encourage people, inspire people, and heal people. So I deserve, I inspire people, so I deserve. And it’s like, bro, shut that ego down because then you’ll start compromising those initial values. And you kind of referenced it, and we talked a little bit before we started recording, I’m watching that happen, at least in the sphere of therapists, entrepreneurs in my community. So I don’t have any experience really, probably with what a lot of your audience does. I’ve never been the guy making courses or retreats or workbooks. I’ve not done much of that. My first venture has been lately planning this conference with Lisa. And so in that I’ve been meeting people, networking, connecting, and like, I’ve just recently seen somebody who even Lisa and I reached out to, at a certain point for a little bit of advice. You know, what’s some advice on throwing a big event? And someone who kind of has a reputation or has a reputation of throwing retreats, and events for therapists and it’s like, come have fun and recharge and network things that sound awesome. Like, I would love to do that. In fact, that’s why we’re doing the conferences ’cause that sounds awesome, right? But then stories come out from people who have participated either being manipulated or deceived, and some of ’em are kind of small where you’re like, oh, I think that person just didn’t care about me and just wanted my money. All the way to things like the event got cancelled and I never got my money back. And some of these things, you’re talking hundreds and thousands of dollars and people make travel arrangements to go to these. I mean, it’s one thing if a rare crisis happened, but when enough people are coming out and saying like, we’ve had a pattern in this. And probably no place to judge anybody in the scenario scenario, but for me, I’m like, that will for sure not be me. And Lisa knows the individual and has had a longer kind of connection, networking with that person. And just as we’ve been talking about I actually didn’t recognise how deep some of that stuff was going again ’cause not knowing people, and I’m not seeing as much of the chatter. And so I’m almost being flippant with it a little bit in conversation and like, oh my gosh, you see this? That’s crazy, huh. And then, one of our conversations, like, I got to see how frustrated she was like, I can’t believe that people do this. Or, you know, people I know have been hurt by things like this. And I’m like, oh gosh. So I had to step back and just kind of accept, okay, this is, there’s more than you see <laugh> going on. But I said, Hey, listen, you and me have integrity, accountability, we have solid moral compasses. Oh, we’re gonna do what this is. Just make sure we don’t do that.

Jo:

So I guess you’ve been able to observe, but you’re not caught up in it. It hasn’t necessarily directly affected you, but you are actually watching the rest of the industry going, wow, that sucks. Sorry that so many people have gotten hurt. But you know what, Lisa, you and I, we’re not gonna put ourselves in a position where that’s gonna be us. We’re not gonna deliberately go out there. So it’s actually helped to shape the importance of your values, right?

Chris:

Well, I was gonna say, it actually follows, I think like even what gets most of us into the mental health field, there are problems in the world. I want to be a solution. Oh, I see depressed people. I wanna help. I see anxiety, I wanna help. I see broken families. I want to help. I see societal tensions. I want to help. Right now I see people being hurt by other professionals who they look up to and trust. I wanna help.

Jo:

Nice. Thanks Chris. I think it’s a really important discussion because I don’t think enough health professionals realise the impact that their words can have on the social media space. And we’re not gonna spend any more time labouring the point. We are always being watched and we’re always being watched by those who are coming up behind us in the profession. New graduates, people thinking about the courses that we offer. We don’t have enough health professionals coming into the space. I just get concerned about other reputational damage that might be done because of the way people react. So tell me about this conference that you and Lisa are putting together ’cause like you’ve said, this is your first opportunity in, in creating something that’s a new income stream for your business. And, Lisa’s brought you along on that journey as something that you guys can do together. So what is the conference? Where is it and why should I attend? Chris, why should I pack my bags?

Chris:

<Laugh> Oh my gosh, because you get to hang out with me, that’s why <laugh>. We’re throwing the first annual Clinician Connection Conference in Virginia Beach, Virginia. That’s the East Coast of the United States. It’s on April 18th through 19th. It’s a day and a half event. And what happened was Lisa and I were having a meeting just to talk about practice things. And she says, I have this crazy idea, but if you don’t think we should do it, we won’t do it ’cause like I said earlier, usually I’m the one that says, Hmm, maybe not yet, or, Hmm, let’s think about it. And she said, I wanna throw a conference. And I was like, yeah, that’s awesome. Let’s do that. Like, there was no back and forth. And then, so as we started hashing that out between her and I, we have decades of experience in the field. We know what people need, we know where people get abused in the field, taken advantage of. And we just said like, what is a way to make a conference where people can connect with each other, they can learn, they can be inspired. And also it doesn’t suck because you’ve been to plenty of conferences where, and again, no shade or judgement on anybody, but you’ve been to conferences, it’s stodgy student ties. Here’s my 75 slide PowerPoint. Yes, we wanna learn things, but we want to engage and we want to kind of step outside of the box for what we’re even helping folks like to engage in. So we’re gonna have 12 workshops. We’re gonna have a keynote speaker to inspire you to really kind of tune back into your calling that brought you into mental health work to begin with.

But for the 12 workshops, some of them are very clinically focused, you know, like some clinical issues, but we try to pick things that are very interesting or niche or we don’t see a lot of people doing it. So, I’m doing a workshop on spiritual abuse, right? We have somebody coming in about working with police officers and law enforcement culture, we have individuals coming in talking about diversifying your ability to work with folks from different populations, folks talking about the L-G-B-T-Q-I-A community. And then we have some that are more like for you as the clinician. One I’m excited to hopefully attend. I mean, I’m in charge, so I just shouldn’t schedule my workshop at the same time, I guess. But we have somebody coming in and talking about what it is like to be a creative person and bridge that into your therapy practice.

So I’m really looking forward to that one. We have another workshop that is a little off the path of what you think of with workshops, and it’s a family or a married couple doing a workshop where the wife was a victim of sexual assault trauma. And she bucked right back, man. She worked, she got legislation passed. She has a nonprofit that does like three or four retreats a year for women who have been through that. And they come and they tell their story and they talk about the impact of rape trauma. And so that’s one of the options. And that’s the reason that one is so interesting for me is it’s not the same as a clinician saying, oh, people have trauma. This is someone who says, I’ve experienced this. Let me tell you how it screwed up my family. Let me tell you what we had to do, to fight back and kind of get back on balance. And then let me tell you what I’m doing about it for other people in many ways, far more powerful than any trauma-informed clinician is gonna speak on the topics. 

Jo:

That’s great!

Chris:

So we want that diversity. It’s on the beach, so there will be break times where as long as God blesses us with decent weather, you can go out, catch the waves or get the nice breeze, something that I probably take for granted living here. That’s a huge perk, man. Come see the beach, relax, network with some folks, and we have a comedy hypnosis show we’re gonna do for entertainment. We’ll probably have some other surprises come along the way. But I don’t want people coming just, oh, you know, every year I gotta get some CEEs and learn some things. Like yeah, do that, but meet some kick-ass people in the process. Get inspired for your work. And like, relax, man. Rest.

Jo:

Nice. Wow. I’m like, okay, how do I make those dates work? And how do I stop needing 36 hours of my life in an aeroplane to get to Virginia Beach, <laugh>?

Chris:

I’ve done international travel and like, you have to really hype yourself up for those flights, <laugh>.

Jo:

Yeah. Or take a lot of drugs that might not be allowed in the country. Anyhow, Chris, that’s been awesome. So tell us what, I think you touched on it, but tell us what you’re doing your doctoral program on. Like, what do you feel the need to be studying and sharing with the world?

Chris:

Sure. Oh, man, I gotta figure out how to do this without talking to you for three hours about it.

Jo:

Oh, okay. I was hoping that would be a short couple of sentences. <Laugh>

Chris:

No, I can give you the short answer. I value being a leader in my field because I’ve had poor leaders and I know the importance of the work. So that’s one thing. So I’m doing a doctoral program and counsellor education and supervision, which is a pretty standard doctoral program. But it’s because I think the people coming up in the field, whether it’s through academic institutions or clinical supervision, they need really good guidance. Not just somebody who can check the boxes and get them through the program, but they need somebody who can say, Hey, first of all, here are the mistakes I’ve made, I see you making ‘em so stop it. Here’s how we figure out how to do treatment when we’re stuck. Here’s how you can also contribute to your community. And hey, also, you are a person too, so take care of yourself, all that stuff. 

The area of research I’m gonna be engaging in is spiritual and religious abuse. That’s where I could go on for hours, but I won’t. I have a background in faith-based work, and I’ve seen similar corruptive leadership figures in the way we were just talking about. Even in this entrepreneurial space and the impact it has on people, very personal to my story, again, probably another conversation if you ever wanna have that, happy to do it. But it’s also a fairly unaddressed issue in clinical literature. And so if somebody is abused or taken advantage of in a faith community or by a faith leader, it sucks and it hurts, and it’s trauma and it impacts your worldview and it impacts your relationships. And so therapists need to know what to do with that.

Jo:

Chris, thank you for making yourself available to come back on the podcast to talk about that. I’m actually gonna take you up on your offer because I’m in Australia and we are the home of Hillsong.

Chris:

That those documentaries are wild.

Jo:

Yes, and then we’ve had a royal commission here which got a lot of our other institutionalised churches to have to admit and focus on the trauma that they had inflicted upon people. So I think this is a growing area of work that we haven’t, as health professionals felt empowered to take a hold of and go, oi (‘oi’ is an Australian phrase for stop it). Take notice. Oi, we need to do something about this. So I’m gonna take you up on that offer. So, Chris, we’re coming to the end of this podcast right now. If people wanna join the Clinician Connection or wanna find out more about this Clinician Connection Conference, how do they do it? Where do they go? What do they need to do?

Chris:

Easy, it’s ClinicianConnection.net. Everything you need to know is there. You can email us hello@clinicianconnection.net if you have questions, but everything you need to know is there. You can see a roster of the speakers, the topics you get kind of an idea of what’s going on. As we get some of the more finer details together, there’ll be more details put on the website as well. But everything you need to know is there. If anybody’s inclined to find me on Facebook, it’s just my name. Find me on Facebook, add me as a friend, look at all the stupid I post, and send me a message if you want to chat. Actually, I don’t really post. That’s actually the hardest part of the entrepreneurial thing for me, is for me, Facebook has always been like pictures of my cat for my grandma, and then like, maybe a silly joke here or there. And now I’m like, I have to post more stuff. I have to get more people to look at my stuff. <Laugh>. That’s honestly where I struggle. So yeah, connect any way, any way you like. So I’m just happy for the opportunity to talk about it and happy to come back anytime and chat with you.

Jo:

Thanks, Chris. So if you want to know more about Clinician Connection Conference, why don’t you go hit up Chris on Facebook, friend him, and ask him to start posting more content about it, because I bet if we ask for it, that’ll make Chris more motivated to provide it, rather than Chris feeling uncomfortable about the fact that he has to do that. So there you go. I’m just gonna hack your smarts right now. Chris, thank you. This has been a really thoughtful conversation, and thank you so much for being willing to come on with somebody that you didn’t really know. Speaking to an audience you are only just starting to become familiar with, and putting yourself out in a very, very public way. I just want to affirm that you’ve done a really great job here today.

Chris:

I appreciate that.

Jo:

Should we ever meet in real life, in real time and be in a cafe together, and I’m gonna buy you a coffee. What are you gonna order?

Chris:

Oh my gosh. I was just gonna ask you, do you want beer, whiskey, or wine?

Jo:

Oh, no, sorry, honey, none of that.

Jo:

For you. Let’s just go with coffee. <Laugh> Coffee.

Chris:

I don’t have a good coffee palette. It all kind of tastes the same to me, so I just make a black coffee and drink it down.

Jo:

All right, well, there you go. And then I’m a vodka girl, <laugh>.

Chris:

Oh, that’s not a bad choice. I’m Irish. It’s gotta be whiskey for me.

Jo:

Yeah, understood. No, I just find vodka’s the thing that I will always be drawn to. There we go. Some more information about Jo that you didn’t know. Thank you so much, Chris. It has been a pleasure to have this conversation with you, and that brings us to the end of another episode of the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Until next time, go be your awesome self.