Unlocking Success as a Health Professional: The Power of Focusing on Your Core Practice

Unlocking Success as a Health Professional: The Power of Focusing on Your Core Practice – with Cyndi Doyle LPC

How do you develop resilience as a health professional and create a sustainable career that enables you to thrive personally and professionally? That’s the question explored in this conversation when Jo is joined by Cyndi Doyle LPC.

Cyndi is a Licensed Professional Counselor, group practice co-owner, founder of Code4Couples®, podcaster, and author of Hold the Line: The Essential Guide to Protecting Your Law Enforcement Relationship.

She has spoken nationally and internationally, including at the International Association of Chiefs of Police Conferences (IACP), the FBI National Academy Association (FBINAA) Conference, keynoted at police spouse conferences throughout the country, and trained at various police departments.

While much of her work focuses on first responders, Cyndi’s stories of embracing and wrestling with living her own bold and authentic life have resulted in her being a sought-after speaker for other health professionals.

You can connect with Cyndi or find out more about her by visiting her website cyndidoyle.com or on code4couples.com.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com

Transcript

Jo:

Welcome to another episode of the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. I am your host, Jo Muirhead, and today we have Cyndi Doyle talking to us all the way from Texas, where it is currently a gazillion degrees. It’s very, very hot, even though it’s quite late in the afternoon. And Cyndi has needed to put blankets up in her windows to address the amount of sunlight coming into her studio. I am so pleased to be bringing this episode with you today, Cyndi Doyle. We can blame Cyndi for this podcast because I have been listening to her podcast code for couples for years. It is an exceptionally incredible, valuable resource for this world. And I just love the way she has put her podcast together. So that’s what this podcast has been modelled on. I’ve asked Cyndi to come and be a part of this podcast because she’s been doing the work of a health professional for a little while now. And I am keen to find out from people who have been doing the work for a while, what keeps them in the business, what keeps them in the work. So we’re gonna have this conversation today, and you’re going to learn some fantastic things about Cyndi and what makes her tick. But Cyndi, before we get into answering that question, who are you? Yes. And what are you putting out into the world?

Cyndi:

Oh, who am I? And what am I putting out into the world? Thank you, Jo, for having me. I really appreciate it. I think this is exciting. And yes, it is a gazillion degrees in Texas, and it’s seven o’clock at night, and it would be like 86. So it’s hot. Who am I? So, I am a licensed professional counsellor. That is my official title, an LPC supervisor. I have a group private practice. I have my own individual private practice. I am insane because I have a quote unquote side gig that’s not a side gig. Last year I realised that my side gig made as much as my therapy room did, and that was a shift for me, for sure, <laugh>. But I’m the founder of Code 4 Couples, which is a website originally, a company that puts out information for law enforcement officers and couples to keep their relationships safe.

And I say code four, but really we’re looking at mental health, and we’re looking at relational health because it is the most important for officer resilience. So I started there mostly because I was married to one and couldn’t figure out what the hell was going on. So yeah, I started with a podcast, wrote a book thanks to Jo kicking my patootie. She kicked my butt and said it needs to be written. And so also a speaker for both the mental health community and for the law enforcement, mental health community. So that’s a little bit about who I am. People are like, you’re insane. I’m like, maybe <laugh>. It’s all a hobby. I’m like, this is my practice and this is my hobby, which is business.

Jo:

We will be talking about that. So, Cyndi, if you don’t mind me asking, when did you graduate? As in what year?

Cyndi:

I graduated with my master’s degree and wait, though, that is a lie. 1995. I graduated with my master’s degree. I got my licence in 1998. So yes, it’s been a hot minute since I graduated. And it’s interesting to me how the field has changed. And as a supervisor who now supervisors new clinicians, I have really had to stay on top of things. So that’s been interesting. So, yes, 1995, I was a young thing because I went straight through. I didn’t stop. I just like went to high school. My parents were like, you don’t need a master’s degree? So I waited tables and slung drinks to get a master’s degree, which was probably good training for counselling, if you think about it.

Jo:

Yeah. There’s slinging drinks or hairdressing. It’s gonna be one of the two. They’re most of our emotional first aiders on the planet if we’re honest. So you and I have had a similar length of time as a health professional. I graduated around the same time. I didn’t need a master’s degree. And I always get intimidated by the people who have got them. Yeah, because it’s more books, and it’s more expensive. But you’ve been around for a while and you’ve just been doing the work. So my big question to you, Cyndi, is how have you kept going? Like, how have you kept doing the work?

Cyndi:

I think my short answer, gotta keep in mind I work with law enforcement and they like the short direct answer, reinventing myself. That is really the short answer to this. So, when I look at my career, first of all, I started my career and I was super scared to go into deep clinical mental health. Like, that was like, Ooh, I don’t know, I’m gonna fail. Like, that was really what I thought. And so I played it safe to me, it was playing safe. And I went into a field that I was kind of already in because with my bachelor’s degree, I went into case management. I worked with low socioeconomic youth. I worked with unemployed individuals. And so I just continued to do that and kind of moved into a career counselling space.

I then moved up into the nonprofit world and wound up being like a deputy director of an agency, wanted to stab my eyes out, burned out like it was dark and deep. And the short version is that it got to a point where I had a federal investigation against me, and that was my kick in the pants from I think, God, to tell me to change <laugh>. And I was all cleared. It was all crap, but it was the thing that got me to move and got my husband on board to allow me to move. And I went into private practice in 2008, started my own practice.

Jo:

Of course, during the global financial crisis!

Cyndi:

But see, I was fine. So federal grants were fine, but the nonprofit shut down, by the way. My husband was in a civil service job, so it didn’t impact us a whole lot, but yes, during the financial crisis, which is hilarious because people are like, what recession? I’m like, no mental health needs are there. So 2008 I joined a private practice. In 2010 I started my own private practice which is a story in a podcast in itself, why that happened the way it did and then just kind of grew from there. But what I find along the way as far as what’s kept me involved is that I tend to get to a point where I’ve gotten better over the years where I find where I’m a little resistant and that the little voice inside my head is like, I don’t wanna go to work. I have to start paying attention to that. And when I start paying attention to that, I have to pay attention to where my mindset is and what’s going on. And so burnout is a real thing, guys. And you have to stay on top of it. The pandemic, my gosh, things shifted. I went from seeing like 25 people a week to like 35 people a week because I thought I had to save the world. So I would end a session and cry and then back up and jump back into the next session. Like part of it for me has been reinventing myself, learning new things, always learning new things. Like I said, since 1995, we didn’t even learn what the DSM was when I went to school. I didn’t know how to diagnose people ’cause they thought that wasn’t important. I don’t know. But like, continually learning things and there’s just so much to know and so much to learn. And I think what I figured out now is to go with my passion. Go with what I love and enjoy. There is enough out there in the world that I can touch somebody, impact somebody, and it’s the one, right. It’s that whole starfish story, right? I’m not trying to make gigantic waves, I just wanna save the one starfish and throw ’em back in the ocean. And the more ones that I throw in, the better off I am. And I think I’ve grown up a lot since the beginning, so my philosophy has changed. So I think that’s kind of it just changing, learning, focusing on the individual in front of you rather than the line at the door. There’s a whole lot there as far as embracing risks. I could go on about that too, but I’m gonna stop.

Jo:

That’s a great answer to a question. And this is why I’m so excited and why it was important for me to include this topic of conversation both on this podcast and also in the upcoming symposium. Because I think watching new people come into the professions or the lack of people coming into the professions. I think we need to have a conversation about what has helped us be resilient thus far. What has helped us get through thus far so that the up and coming generations can take our knowledge, our skills, our expertise, and turn it into something that’s gonna work for them as well. And we can’t do that unless we’re having these conversations. And if all we’re telling the newer clinicians is there’s no pay, you’ll get burnout. It’s very expensive. You’re gonna end up with board complaints against you. And if that’s all they’re hearing, then we’re not gonna have anybody doing the work. And my biggest concern is that I will selfishly get to the point of needing a health professional and there’ll be nobody there to take care of me. And I don’t want AI taking care of me. Not that I think it will, but I just don’t.

Cyndi:

Just don’t want that. Yes, I hear you.

And I think I’ll just mention one little thing there that you said. I think a big part of that is the idea that you don’t have to have all the answers. And I think overall, when we think of health professionals, the number one thing we need to do is provide the relationship. And we’re so concerned about providing the solution that we lose sight of the most important thing, which is the relationship that we need to have with the people in front of us. I have looked at clients and go and said, I’m not exactly sure what we need to do here, but let’s work on that together. Right? And the honesty that comes with that. But doing that takes some courage, I think, to admit that you don’t know. And I don’t know that everybody, especially new clinicians coming out, feel safe and comfortable doing that. That’s scary.

Jo:

Yeah. So that’s a great conversation for a new clinician to have in supervision or in my case, in consultation. So I still pay for clinical supervision here in Australia because to me, it’s crazy that I don’t need ongoing supervision. I need somewhere to go and talk about what I’ve seen, what I’ve heard, how it’s affecting me. And then I love the look in the psychologist’s eyes that I go to and she goes, you did what now?

Cyndi:

And the blind spots, right? Like, what am I not seeing? That’s important. Absolutely.

Jo:

Yeah. So when it’s easy for us as more experienced, more seasoned health professionals to kind of have that conversation with a client and go, actually, I don’t have the answers, but what I trust is that we’ll be able to work it out together. I would’ve been terrified as somebody in my first 12 months to have that conversation. I would’ve been like, I can’t admit that. I can’t say that to anybody. I’m gonna be sacked tomorrow if I say it ’cause that was always my biggest fear. If they’re gonna find out how suck, how sucky I am.

Cyndi:

How much you suck. Yeah. <Laugh>. They don’t really, really know what happens behind this door.

Jo:

That’s exactly right. Just walk outta here with a smile.

Cyndi:

Right.

Jo:

What are some of the things that are seasoned professionals, some of the attitudes and beliefs that we have that aren’t actually helpful anymore? Can you talk into that a little bit? Like, what are some of the things that we need to call each other out on?

Cyndi:

So I don’t know what it’s like around the world, but I don’t think we value our new clinicians coming out. I think one of the things that we need to ditch is this idea that you’ve gotta pay your dues. And just because we had to rake ourselves over to the hot coals because the person did it before us, doesn’t mean that we need to continue that practice. There is enough business. And I don’t know if that’s out of scarcity, like, oh, I’m scared. Like you don’t have the knowledge, but that’s crap to me. I mean, people graduate. Do they need supervision? Absolutely. But they have a freaking Masters, at least in my world, right? In my world as an LPC, they have a master’s degree people! Let’s make sure that they are being seen as somebody who’s valuable. Because if we don’t value them, then the clients won’t value them. And if the clients don’t value them, they don’t get people. And if they don’t get people, they don’t get their licence and they get burned out. So part of what we have to ditch is this idea of paying your dues. It’s just so old school to me. I think that’s number one. That would be my number one is ditch that idea

Jo:

That paying your dues. I’m gonna interrupt you there because most seasoned professionals will go, yeah, I’ve gotten rid of that. I’ve gotten rid of that. I don’t say that anymore.

Cyndi:

Jo:

Yeah. <Laugh>. It’s just because I know it turns up for me as well. In my clinical practice and my private practice. And I’ll sit there and somebody will say something to them and I’ll go, you think you’re just gonna hand that to <laugh>? Like, you think you’re ready for that? Like, you haven’t sweated blood yet. And these thoughts come very fast and I’ve coached people all over the world and they’ll say to me, I love my associates, I love my pre-licensed people. I love my supervision people. And then all of a sudden they’ll say, yeah, but they just don’t work hard enough.

Cyndi:

<Laugh>

Jo:

Do you see that? Or is it just me? <Laugh>?

Cyndi:

No, I see that too. And then I hear people say, you’re not ready for that yet. I was thinking about something that happened this week, and one of my associates and she contacted me and she’s like I just don’t think I’m ready for this. I’m like, you are. Come on, let’s dive in. Let’s jump in. That’s why I’m here. That’s why you have me as a supervisor. We’ll consult, we’ll work through this together. What can you screw up? You just gotta focus on the relationship, right? We’ll work on the rest. I’m like, can you be with the client? But it scares them many times that they’re going to fail, which is my number two, by the way.

Jo:

Go for it.

Cyndi:

Now it’s the failure aspect. You and I have talked about this in different aspects in the time that we’ve known each other. It’s the idea that, especially, I don’t know about y’all, but in many health professions, it’s the idea that you gotta be perfect. There’s gonna be people, your peers watching you, they’re gonna be board complaints. And if you’re not perfect, then the insurance companies are gonna come after you. Your peers are gonna come after you. You better not let them know that you screw up. And we were talking about that a little bit earlier. Like, but failure is hard. And failing in the therapy room or in a practice room you don’t go out and go, sorry, I screwed that one up. I’ve been doing this since 1995, and I do it all the time. Maybe not all the time, but I do it frequently. There are little moments that I think I should have shut up right there and let the client do it right. Or that was leading, or ooh what did I just do there? But that I think is that process that we have to have is that critical thinking process. But this idea that you get to this point and you don’t ever need supervision, that’s crap. I think we’re starting to change some of that a little bit. But we need to start talking to people about failure, making it okay. Talking about the fact that, hey, I had a board complaint. I mean, how many people walk up and go, so I had a board complaint the other day? Nobody says that. And we need to get rid of that idea that needs to be closeted. And there’s like this layer of shame, like, let’s work through that one too.

Jo:

Absolutely. I’m gonna actually put that on my list of topics for 2024, as in next year’s symposium. <Laugh>. Because I really do think it needs to be talked about. So failure as a health professional though, we talk about being authentic. And we know that clients don’t want the white face, the stoic face, the white coat. They wanna know that we’re real people and that we can help them with a solution to their problem. But there are some limitations to our authenticity because we wanna make sure that we’re not putting a client in a position of harm. But failure for health professionals can also have really quite disastrous consequences. So we have to take seriously this whole caveat of do no harm, right? So how do we balance, or how do we make sense of, oh, I stuffed that up today and holy crap hole of Batman. I really stuffed that up today. Like, how do we learn? Because that’s not something that we graduate with. We don’t graduate with this great big long list that we can check off. And things change and morph over time. And so how do we make sense of that piece, Cyndi?

Cyndi:

You know, I think it goes back to when you mentioned supervision, but I think part of it too is collaboration. That as professionals, many times as health professionals, I think we work in our rooms, right? And whether that’s a clinical room or a client room, or wherever you are, right? You work in a room and you do your thing and you’re going from client to client, and when do you really collaborate with folks? And so I think in the idea, and this is why I think it’s really important for people to have, if they don’t work in some kind of group, they need to connect with people and peers that can help them along the way. Because there is that balance between knowing and learning what are the failures that we all screw up on. I have a six hour ethics program on it. And there was this research study about how clinicians fail. And one of them was they fall asleep. And of course, everybody laughs at that one. And I was at this presentation and this guy came up and he said, Cyndi, I’m the one who fell asleep. I was like, really? And he told me the story and he said, you know what? Anytime you need to use that story, please do. Because I want people to know that it happens. So he was talking about how it was after lunch he had had pasta, and so he’s tired, and there was a layer of shame to this. His client is blind. And when she’s speaking, she’s monotone tone. And so he found himself all of a sudden, like waking himself up, and the amount of shame he felt. Not just that I fell asleep, but that she didn’t know was immense. And so when we’re talking about that, we’re talking about when do we screw up and when do we really screw up? And I think part of it then is also identifying the difference between guilt and shame. So is this behaviour that like, ooh, I need to be careful of that behaviour, or are you spinning in shame? Because if you’re sitting in shame, we hide it in the dark, we stick it in the corner, it grows mould, it infects other things. Right. And that’s when we sit in shame as health professionals, that’s when we really start screwing things up because we don’t ask for help and we’re trying to make up for something because we’re trying to run away from all that shame. So I think that’s a good indicator. I think it’s necessary for us to be able to talk about it. I think that’s new in our field.

Jo:

I would agree with you.

Cyndi:

I remember just recently like, 5, 6, 7 years ago that people were like, don’t do MDR? How do you do therapy? Like, it was unheard of because I didn’t do this one technique that I couldn’t be effective. So shame kind of runs rampant. And we have to be careful of that.

Jo:

And we’re very, very good at heaping shame on each other. Let’s just be honest about that. I used to work in hospitals keeping nurses nursing, and I used to be completely stunned at how vicious nurses in hospitals were to each other. And it’s not just nurses. I see it everywhere.

Cyndi:

It’s everywhere.

Jo:

It is everywhere. And we often weaponise words like, it’s ethical, you’re being unprofessional. And then that just forces us to cloak ourselves in further and further shame and go, well, obviously I can’t talk about this. And I certainly don’t want my peers to know about it. So is it any wonder that we have new clinicians or newly licensed clinicians struggling with this stuff? Because we’re not being taught how to navigate it.

Cyndi:

No, no. You’re not being taught how to navigate it. And I think also I’m gonna, you know, kind of dog on people that have been tenured around. I think part of it too is us being willing to be okay with it. And these are culture shifts, right? So when we think about a culture shift like that, it turns it around. And it’s one of the things that I start with my associates, when I’m talking to ’em, I’m like, if you’re not bringing me failures, I don’t think you’re being congruent and honest. I don’t think you’re being authentic if you’re not telling me about your failures. If you’re not telling me about your failures, if I don’t hear how you’re struggling, then we’re gonna be having a different type of conversation. Because you’re not listening to yourself and either you think that you got it all, which you don’t or you’re hiding something. So I think that as more tenured individuals, people that are mentoring, you don’t have to be a supervisor, you can just be a mentor, which is where I started. I got shamed into being a supervisor by somebody, but I was fine just being a mentor to younger folks. talking about things and bringing up conversations. If we don’t bring it up, they’re not gonna talk about it. So people don’t walk up to somebody they don’t know and go, so I had a really bad moment with the client the other day. You know, you’ve gotta bring that up and you’ve gotta make it. We have to make it just a common conversation.

Jo:

Yeah. It’s not even about creating safety, it’s about making it normal.

Cyndi:

Yes. It’s normalising it. Absolutely.

Jo:

So I’ve recently had a situation with somebody that I provide ongoing supervision to. She was so upset because of the way a situation turned out with a client. And I went, really? Okay, so I’m hearing that that didn’t go as well and you’ve learn from it. And she goes, yeah and now the client’s disengaged. I said, okay. And she’s like, so what do you wanna do about that? I need to re-engage with the client. I’m like, no, I actually don’t think you do <laugh>. I think the client’s gone and made a choice, and that’s okay.

Cyndi:

And that’s okay. Yes.

Jo:

You have admitted that you haven’t done anything that’s gonna cause this person harm. You’ve actually empowered this person to make a choice. And she went, oh yeah. It’s not the choice you wanted them to make <laugh>, but you’ve actually empowered them to make a choice.

Cyndi:

Isn’t it crazy? You’ll get fired. Yes. And that’s okay. I’ve been fired so many times, I’m like, I’m okay. And I will sometimes even tell a client, maybe this isn’t working for you? And they look at me like, are you quitting me? I’m like, yeah. It’s a choice. We all get fired, but people don’t talk about that. We need to do a podcast on getting fired!

Jo:

Let’s book that for November. I’ve got this symposium to get through first.

Cyndi:

You just put it on your to-do list.

Jo:

Okay. I wanna talk about reinvention because I know that there are so many people who wanna reinvent themselves and they’ve heard you describe yourself as a private practice owner, as somebody who does private practice. You’re a speaker, you’re an author, you’re a podcaster. I know that you’re going into law enforcement agencies all over your country training. So you’re like a corporate trainer and corporate wellness professional as well.

Cyndi:

I contract with two national nonprofits. I’m a subject matter expert. Yes.

Jo:

There you go. So the re-invention piece. So the first thing I wanna ask is, and you’re all gonna go, duh, but let me just put this in context. Were you reinventing yourself in the first 12 months of being a clinician?

Cyndi:

No.

Jo:

Thank you. <Laugh>. The reason I say that is ’cause we’re in such a rush to do the next thing and the rush to get the side hustle up and the rush to become the subject matter expert

Cyndi:

Can we just be health professionals for a while?

Jo:

Yeah. Thank you. Ha. There’s nothing wrong with just being a health professional.

Cyndi:

There is absolutely nothing wrong. I have a business partner and she has a totally different lifestyle than me. And she goes to the office and she works 10 to five, four days a week. Then she goes home and she’s with her wife. Like, that’s it. She plays on the weekend, she doesn’t do anything. She doesn’t care about speaking. She’s like, I have a glorious life. She’s in London currently. There’s nothing wrong with doing that. But we’ve made it this whole thing of like, you gotta do this other business thing. And side hustles are not easy. They’re just not. It’s totally okay if you don’t do it. Like, it’s totally okay if you are just a health professional and serving the world in that way.

Jo:

And serving yourself in that way. The lifestyle that you were talking about with your business partner. It’s okay to want that.

Cyndi:

Yeah. She goes home and has dinner and plays with her dogs. It’s okay to want that.

Jo:

Yeah, the work we do is hard. And it’s rewarding and it’s incredibly fulfilling. And we don’t spend a lot of time reflecting on that because we’re in a rush to get to the next thing like, I’ve gotta become a speaker.

Cyndi:

It’s the scarcity thing again. I was talking with one of the girls in my office yesterday, we were having lunch, and she’s like, well, now that you’re home, you can start your side hustle. And of course I was jealous of people that were cleaning out their closet. I’m like, screw that. Do you know how busy I am? But we were talking about that idea. Like, it’s this push, push push to be like running around with your hair on fire. And honestly, part of the reason why I got into this was it’s like to have freedom and flexibility. And I have some freedom and flexibility and I have this thing I wanna do to impact the world.

And it’s not about me. And you taught me this, actually, this is something that you taught me. I had to really think about my why, because initially my why was like, oh, it’s because I want to have a side gig. That’s really what my initial why was because I thought that somehow I was gonna make better money. More money ’cause a lot of times, that’s what we’re doing. And if y’all wanna talk to me about opening a group private practice or starting a podcast, I may talk you out of it. But my why has moved around. You said something, I don’t remember what, but I realised, you know what? It’s because of all the other people that went through the struggles that I went through as a law enforcement officer, that I feel selfish if I don’t share what I know and that my why is to impact another community. And that’s bigger than me. And so it’s because it’s bigger than me that I keep showing up and I do it.

Jo:

But I think helping us understand that the side hustle culture is not necessarily as healthy as we might think it is. And again that speaks into do we feel like we’re doing enough significant work? Which is a question you need to be actually asking yourself, probably with your supervisor. If it’s about income, then that’s a question we need to be asking about value, worth and capacity to pay the wages. We know that health professionals are not receiving the type of wages and the income that are comparable with people with other master’s levels degrees. We’re not gonna change that in this podcast. But if we don’t start empowering ourselves and each other to have those conversations, nothing is going to change.

Cyndi:

Absolutely.

Jo:

And if you are in a position listening to this podcast today, and you kind of go, oh, thank God I don’t have to have a side hustle. I don’t have to have seven income streams. I can just turn up and be a health professional. Please own it. Please come into the Future Proofing Health Professionals Facebook group and let us know so we can high five you and say, oh, we wanna celebrate you. And if you are feeling burnt out because you’re trying to manage learning how to do this work, plus learning how to do another piece of the work while you’re learning how to be the human that you wanna be while learning how to have a family. That’s why you’re burning out. And we don’t wanna shame you. We just wanna help you make different decisions. Cyndi is nodding away, going, yeah, there won’t be any shame. We just wanna help you make different decisions. That this is really cool. This conversation is going to be going over into the symposium where we’ve got the fantastic Alyssa asking three seasoned health professionals about how they have stuck it out and what are some of the attitudes and beliefs that we need to let go of, like failing and the need for ongoing supervision.

Cyndi, if people wanted to find out more about you, read your book, listen to your podcast, how do they do that? How do they find you?

Cyndi:

So pretty much everything is Code 4 Couples. So code four means everything is copacetic and fine as opposed to code three where everything is burning down. So we’re going for code four as far as law enforcement, mental health, and relationships. So code4couples.com. My Instagram is code4couples.com. Facebook is the same thing. Linkedin, which I’m active on, gets a little bit more complicated. It’s like Cyndi Doyle LPC I think.

Jo:

Okay. We’ll work it out.

Cyndi:

It’s something like that. The book is on Amazon. The podcast is on all the platforms. It’s Code 4 Couples as well. The book is called Hold the Line, the Essential Guide to Protecting Your Law Enforcement Relationship.

Jo:

It is an outstanding book. If you have law enforcement professionals in your world, or you’ve worked with them, or you are working with them, or you wanna work with them, you need this book ’cause not only does it just talk about relationships, it helped me understand the culture of law enforcement personnel. And if you are one of these people who says I don’t wanna have anything to do with the police because they treat people so appallingly, yeah we know that. Which is why we need people like Cyndi inside law enforcement agencies, helping them learn how to do their jobs differently so that our communities are genuinely safer and not becoming fearful of the police. So we will have Cyndi’s contact details in the show notes. You can come and join Cyndi at the 2023 International Future Proofing Health Professional Symposium, where she will not only be a panellist, she will also be facilitating hosting the party of the last session of the entire thing. Which is great for me, and I am so appreciative of her being a part of that. If you want to have a conversation with Cyndi or check her out a little bit more, join the free Facebook group, Future Proofing Health Professionals. She’s in there, she’s active. Got a question. She will answer it for you.

Now Cyndi, when we get together again in real life at a cafe. Yes. What am I ordering for you?

Cyndi:

A macchiato.

Jo:

Woo. Just ’cause you wanna know what it is, right? <Laugh>?

Cyndi:

No, I know what a macchiato is. I make ’em all the time at work. That’s all I need. I don’t know. Fancy, fluffy stuff.

Jo:

I don’t do frothy milk. Any who? Wonderful. Cyndi, thank you so much for being a part of this podcast with me. But everybody listening, go forth, find Cyndi, and until the next episode, go be your awesome self.