Unveiling Equitable Practice: Navigating Curiosity, Cultural Competence, and Inclusion in Health Care

Unveiling Equitable Practice: Navigating Curiosity, Cultural Competence, and Inclusion in Health Care – with Latasha Matthews LPC

Curiosity can be the greatest asset of a health professional. But what role can curiosity play in helping health professionals develop cultural competence and promote equitable practices so that we’re able to meet our clients and patients where they are at? That’s the topic of this episode when Jo is joined by Latasha Matthews LPC.

Latasha is the Clinical Director and founder of Illumination Counseling and Coaching. She is a Licensed Professional Counselor and Clinical supervisor. She has become known as America’s Emotional Wellness Expert as a result of her work providing guidance and support as it relates to the importance of emotional wellness. Latasha is a Best Selling author of The Dumping Ground and has spoken throughout the United States sharing the importance of boundary setting as a key component to good emotional health.

You can connect with Latasha via her website at latashamatthews.com.

Resources mentioned in this episode:

If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com

Transcript

Jo:

Welcome back to another episode of the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Today I am a little bit excited <laugh> to be speaking to somebody all the way from Georgia in the United States. Now, I admit I had to look up what GA meant as an abbreviation, and I’ve learned that you are a long way away from me in Sydney, Australia right now. So today on the podcast, I have Latasha Matthews, who has an incredible career as a mental health professional in the us. But Latasha, I’m not gonna do any introduction to you, justice. Can you share with us who you are, who you serve, and what you’ve been up to?

Latasha:

Yes. Thank you for having me all the way from Australia. I am happy to be here. It’s sunny in Georgia. So as Jo stated, I am Latasha Matthews. I’m a licensed professional counsellor, clinical supervisor. But before I give you all that stuff, I am a human being first. <Laugh>

Jo:

Nice.

Latasha:

I wanna start there because once you start talking about all these titles, you forget that you’re a person, right? Yeah. And so I function in the role as a clinical supervisor. I am an adjunct professor. What people don’t know is prior to all of this stuff, I was in HR for 13 years. So I have a good pulse on what’s going on in the corporate world and the mental health world. And, and so I’ve done some legal consultation on boundary setting. My area that I talk about most is boundary setting and practice. But really just setting boundaries for wellness and self-care. And so because I’ve done this in the mental health space for a while, I’m kind of venturing back off into the corporate space because I think it’s just a larger impact you can make and less impact on my body as well. So that is where I’m at. I have a book called The Dumping Ground and I have a product on boundary setting. And the reason I developed it, I wanna be very transparent to your audience is because I have poor boundaries. And so I believe that once you have gotten through an area, you should be able to share your experiences so others don’t have to go through that.

Jo:

Oh, that’s what an amazing career history we’ve got here. And I must admit, when I was stalking you, I mean researching you yesterday, I found your book, and I found your products, and I got so excited. They’re currently sitting in my shopping cart waiting for the end of this podcast today for me to go. Now I can buy them. I feel good about all of this. You speak, you consult, you are a clinical supervisor. You’re a straight shooter. You know where you stand when Latasha is around. You’ve got the most incredible social media presence. It’s just full of elegance and grace. And I always look forward to seeing your social media posts come through my feed. So one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about today is an Australian who’s been working with American health professionals for over 10 years now.

I heard this phrase, and the phrase is cultural competence or being culturally competent and I went, that’s a really interesting use of words and language. And then for a long time, well, it felt like a long time, there was a lot of pressure put on mental health professionals to learn to become culturally competent. And I’m watching, what is actually learning? And why is this important? And then I’m like trying to reflect the language back going, did I just do it? Was I just demonstrating cultural competence and looking for some feedback? And I opened this conversation up, and then you help me understand that maybe the conversation doesn’t need to use those words. What do you understand cultural competency to be?

Latasha:

Yes. Thank you for kind of laying out your understanding. And I’m gonna be honest, in the mental health profession, we are told that we need to follow these guidelines. But then after you start to try to follow the guidelines, you find that they don’t really fit right? <Laugh>. They fit a little. And then you ask yourself, why am I doing this? Very similar to your process. So I had to go through my own process. In the code of ethics, we are taught to be culturally competent. So what does that mean for a black woman? I still need to understand someone else’s culture. And not the high level culture, it is the little nuances to make sure that I am providing care that’s gonna be useful for my clients. And also so that we can have a therapeutic relationship because if I don’t understand them, then I can’t really help them. And so a lot of harm goes into the therapeutic process when you don’t really understand your client. So that’s it in a watered down level, just really taking a closer curiosity about who’s sitting in front of you and not assuming that because that person looks exactly like you, they may come from the same culture, but there’s nuances that you have to still pick apart. And if I can give you a quick example from my own family of origin. So my sister, she’s a scientist. She does cancer and HIV research. And 20 years ago, she had a traumatic experience while driving. And so the first thing you do is you go to a counsellor, right? And so her first experience with the counsellor, the counsellor asked what she was doing to cope with the anxiety that she was now having from this experience.

And so she told the counsellor, I’m spiritual and I pray. And so that counsellor said to her, without asking any curiosity questions, well, what do you do that for? That’s not going to help you with driving. Now, mind you, this was about 20 years ago. My sister was 22 at the time. It shaped her life. She has not driven on the expressway since then. She stopped gonna to counselling. She has had to find jobs where she could drive on the side roads to get to work. Now, she’s still a brilliant scientist, but if she had a counsellor that was culturally competent, she would’ve probably worked for Obama or any of the other presidents. She probably would’ve been more adept socially. Financially. It has impacted every aspect of her life, just by that one statement. So it’s not so much you’re saying anything wrong, you’re just not being curious enough to ask more questions.

Jo:

What a great example. And thank you so much to your sister for allowing us to use that as an example. Because how many times have we been in that situation. And now I wanna give my example. So how many times have we been in front of health professionals, and they’ve just blurted out something or it feels like they’ve just blurted something out and it’s left us feeling very jarred, not seen, not understood. So my experience that back in the breast cancer treatment days one of the surgeons that I was seeing, she was a very well-respected, competent surgeon here in the part of Australia that I live in. But her background is very Chinese. If you haven’t seen me, I am tall. I might be described as big bones. I’ve always been very sporty. Finding clothing in Asian stores will not work for me. And we had three or four consultations about my reconstruction that I wanted to have afterwards. And she kept telling me that I needed to have this particular type of reconstruction, and then she blurted out. So prior to breast surgery, I was a very well endowed lady, the big girl. And she said to me, don’t you come outta this surgery with perky boobs?

No was my short answer <laugh>. I don’t even know what that means. So again, that really upset me, that has really caused me problems and it’s made me feel very, very unsafe with anybody who wants to take to me with a scalpel. It is a similar experience to what you’re talking about? You’re nodding your head a lot. Okay. Share with me what you’ve heard me just describe there? <laugh>.

Latasha:

Well, it’s a very similar experience to a person not having, I’m just gonna say not having enough impulse control to pause

Jo:

<Laugh>

Latasha:

And just be a little more curious. Also, it really speaks to the equity issues in healthcare and mental health, because that’s what we’re talking about. Like, people getting the training on equity and what does equity look like? Most people think equity is, oh, we have to treat people fairly. Equity is understanding that some statements are going to be offensive and equity, it’s being broad enough, but not putting someone in a box. So I do think there’s levels of training that has not taken place. I have tons of examples. You know, I have had to do a better job at advocating for myself even in healthcare with dentists. I just think across the board, we’re not all trained in the same ways. And some of the healthcare systems don’t look at equity in the same way.

Jo:

No, you’re right. It’s like it’s fair. It’s like you can go to the doctor the same as I can go to the doctor. You can choose that surgeon. The way I can choose that surgeon. It’s like, well, hang on a minute. If you’ve not been educated on how to make those choices, then how can we say that it’s equitable? That’s what we’re trying to say here. So this cultural competency piece actually start speaking into access, equity, inclusion, curiosity, rapport building. Oh. And many of us just think it’s a box we need to tick to prove that we can keep our credentials. Is that how it can turn up?

Latasha:

Correct. And the biggest challenge that I see is a lot of people are being misdiagnosed. <Laugh>,

Jo:

Whoa, whoa. That’s where this could lead?

Latasha:

Misdiagnosis and healthcare. I give another quick example because I think it’s relevant. So I went to my medical doctor. I’ve been seeing my medical doctor for nine years. We had a great relationship. And what I found out more recently, we had a great relationship because I didn’t really have any real problems. I was healthy. So the first time I go in with these symptoms that are bizarre, more mental health related symptoms, I really learned that her process didn’t really serve me. So she didn’t do a mental health exam. She knew I was a mental health provider and said to me, well, you’re a mental health provider. I’m sure you know how to take care of this. And so it made me reflect on what I looked for at 20 in a provider is not what I look for at 50.

And so, not judging all providers, but really assessing what you need. So it made me question her ability to do a mental health exam. She sent me home. She said, you’re right in the middle. But I was telling her things that I had never said before in eight or nine years that should have been odd to her but now I’m coming in here and I’m telling her all of the things and I didn’t wanna be give her any of the, this is what I think you should be focused on. I wanted her to do her job. And it was like, well just go dance. I know you like dancing. That was so bizarre. Like, okay, we talked about dancing. So you are not gonna do an assessment. You’re gonna tell me to go dance? Yeah. ’cause I like dancing.

Jo:

Okay. So from that experience and from your sister’s experience and from my experience it’s left us feeling really minimised, right? It’s like, what’s going on for me is actually not important. I’ve come to you as an expert. I am distressed by this, or I’m upset about this or I’m nervous about this, but you are just gonna minimise myself. So what I’m hearing is when we’re not taking on this curiosity mindset and making sure that the person in front of us is the person we think we’ve got in front of us, right? Then we are at risk of saying something well-meaning, but probably unhelpful that could cause us to like me that’s traumatised me. Your sister had a horrible experience. You now left with the situation of, oh my God, do I need to go and find another medical provider? And we all know how much fun that can be. So if we’re doing that, how many people are we adding to the bucket of people not getting served?

Latasha:

Yeah. It’s definitely made me look at how I practise, how I ask questions, how I guide or don’t guide it. It just really made me look at my own process as well. Because I do think that depending on where you were taught, who you were taught by what state, what country you’re in, you pick up that culture. ’cause that’s a culture. And then you take it into your practice and then you have to do a lot of unlearning. Like, should I keep this? Yeah. Was this really true? Is this really accurate for the population I’m serving? Do I feel good about this process that I’ve been told I need to do based on somebody else’s ethical code? Does it really apply? Is it really helpful to my clients? Do I wanna serve in that way? And how can I advocate for clients if I don’t feel it fits them without breaking the code?

Jo:

Yes. And I’m so glad you brought that up, because you are not giving people’s permission to act in unethical and unprofessional ways. If that’s what you’ve just heard Latasha say. That’s not what she said. What she was demonstrating was an incredibly high level of critical thinking that we all need to engage in where we go, these are the rules of my profession. This allows me to help keep myself and my clients safe. How am I gonna turn up in these rules, right? So if we know what the rules of the game are, then we know how to play the game. And I’m not trying to minimise what we do. So where do you see health professionals, mental health professionals being more, and I’m gonna use the word ignorant, not arrogant, but they’re just ignorant. They just have no clue that they need to work on this. How is that turning up? Like where do you kind of go? Ooh, wait, hang on a minute. Can I say something over here? <Laugh>?

Latasha:

Yeah. I definitely think that if you’re working in isolation you know, we all have our own views on social media and news, but if you’re working in isolation and you’re not connecting with other professionals, you’re not consulting, you’re not getting outside of your normal conferences. And and connecting with people that are in other disciplines, if you’re not stretching your thought process, there has to be more than the books. You know, I got my degree a long time ago, and although I am teaching in a practicum internship and still seeing some of the same stuff, I am glad that I teach practical internship because I can really say to my students, some of that is real and some of that is not. Wish I had a professor that said that to me years ago. I wish I had a professor that said be more curious. Learn what you learn, but continue to learn and be more curious. I know that a lot of clinicians struggle with boundary setting, who don’t have the competence to connect with clients because they are fearful of what might happen based on the code.

Jo:

Yep. Oh, I’m fearful of what might happen just because I’m gonna offend somebody. So I’m curious and I wanna learn, but I’ve also been shut down or growled at or minimised because I’ve gone to people to say, can you teach me how to be more aware of this particular issue or this population? And I’m often quite met with things like, no. I’m like, okay, now I’m, now I’m stuck <laugh>. You don’t want me learning from white coat men, but the people I go to to learn, you’re telling me you won’t teach me. Help! <laugh>. So I’ll give you a couple of examples. We have Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders here in Australia. And they genuinely are not gonna find me an attractive person to work with. Number one, I don’t look like them. And number two, in Australia, there is such a disparity between the health of our indigenous population and people like me that like, we’re not even in the rooms. But if I wanted to pursue how to work with that population, what are some of the simple things I could learn to do?

Latasha:

Yes. I miss the population. Tell me again, the population.

Jo:

Okay. So there, our indigenous population, our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander population.

Latasha:

Yeah. So again, I don’t like when people shut other people down when they’re trying to learn. So for you, I believe connecting with someone who’s open, who’s a little more open to share to give you just some tips. I still think that there’s a lot of people, like, don’t ask me, figure it out. And you’re like, okay, well how do I figure it out? So I think you need to connect with people who are willing to share who sees your heart and knows that you want to be an ally and work with the population. And then I do think that although you may think that that population may not wanna work with you, I’m not always totally sure. So make sure you don’t go into it thinking they don’t wanna work with me. <Laugh>.

Jo:

Nice. Well, thank you and I appreciate you saying that because just from the reading that I’ve been doing and it doesn’t quite feel so safe for me. It’s been like, oh, they, they’re not gonna wanna know me, they’re not gonna wanna know. And I know that my private practice has a lot to contribute to this population, and I started my career in the red dirt parts of Australia. So I kind of understand a little bit about what it’s like to live where you’ve got no facilities and resources, but that’s actually really helpful. It’s like I felt shut down. So I’ve now assumed that this population is a population that won’t wanna work with me. So again, that brings us back to the, well what if those people could really be served by you? You’ve just bought that whole circle back again. So insightful. And this is why I asked you to come along. So do you think that cultural competence and inclusion are the same thing? Are they nuanced differently?

Latasha:

I think they are nuanced differently. Do you remember, and I don’t know if this applies to Australia, you remember when EEOC first kind of popped up?

Jo:

Nope. No idea what that is.

Latasha:

Okay. Equal Opportunity Employment Commission.

Jo:

Oh that I do. Oh heck yes. Very aware of that.

Latasha:

So you remember when that first came up, it was a way of introducing some fairness, but it was still kinda skewed <laugh>. You know what I mean? So I think cultural competence is a good way of saying you need to understand, but do you really accept, like we gotta go past having the competence and what does competence? Now that’s a term that is used in mental health. And I think that, I’m hoping that that word will evolve. Whoever writes the code, that’s the code for most disciplines cultural competence, because I think they’re at the starting point. I don’t even know if that was always the case. So each time a new edition comes out, we’re gonna see the language change. I think advocacy changes the language and we went from cultural competence to social justice. Social justice hasn’t always been in there. So you see the evolution of each time someone rewrites the code, people advocate to say, this is what we need to be talking about. And so I do think that diversity, equity and inclusion we end up in the code and lots of other things and areas that really we don’t tap into. So I think it’s an evolution.

Jo:

Nice. Diversity, equity and inclusion is where we’re evolving to which, you know, I, I know there’ll be many people listening to this and go, well, aren’t we already there yet? Well we might be the practitioners on the ground might be. But as I’ve been saying all along, if we wait for the institutions that like to govern and regulate us to make these changes, <laugh> we’ll be stuck in the 1800s. And I mean that quite literally. So being able to help us critically evaluate words like competence, cultural competence, and then phrases like diversity, equity, and inclusion. And what I’m excited about is that you are facilitating one of the symposium sessions, <laugh>, which is we’ve got a panel of people coming along and you are going to be speaking to people representing the LGBTIQ plus. We’ve got someone from chronic health, we’ve got somebody speaking directly to people who’ve experienced trauma and yourself to talk about curiosity, curiosity, cultural competence, diversity, equity, and inclusion. So if you didn’t know what you were doing in the symposium, I’ve just told you <laugh>.

Latasha:

I know. Your assistant is amazing. I think her name is Deb. She’s amazing.

Jo:

It’s gonna be great. So if there were three key things that you would like clinicians listening to this episode today to take away from your information, three key things about diversity, equity, and inclusion, that they can go straight away into their practice and start thinking about what would those three things be?

Latasha:

Okay. I’ll start with what I started. Be human.

Jo:

Nice.

Latasha:

Be humble. And continue to be curious.

Jo:

Yeah. Be human, be humble and be curious. I was so trying not to tell you to say be curious. So thank you for bringing that one up. That’s beautiful. Excellent. Latasha, you are a fantastic guest. Now, the most important question for me, when we finally get to meet each other in real life, and I take you out for a coffee, which won’t be at Starbucks by the way. But when I get to <laugh>, what are you going to order?

Latasha:

Well, I mean, hopefully it’s a time where they have some specialty coffees. What used to be my favourite is like a pumpkin spice. You may have to help me because I don’t really I never know what to order. So I always make coffee at home. I never know if I’m gonna order ice or latte. I am just basic. Give me a pot <laugh> and put some different creamer in it. I am not knowledgeable.

Jo:

Well actually <laugh> you would be the perfect cafe guest <laugh>, because some of the lists of the orders that I’ve got from other guests, I’m like, I don’t even know how to ask for that. So this is a fun part of this question. Latasha, how can people learn more about your book, your cards, like your products, and how can they get in touch with you?

Latasha:

Yes, You can find me on latashamatthews.com and on Instagram. I have a new venture called Y to live well. So you can reach out to y to live well.com. I am tapping into a larger audience. But just follow me in those areas and you’ll see what’s to come.

Jo:

Fantastic. We’ll have a lot of places that you can go find Latasha in the show notes. Make sure that you get onto those. Check out her book. It will be in the symposium bookshop. So that’s gonna be cool. Check out the Future Proofing Health Professionals 2023 Symposium. It is an international symposium. You are gonna wish that you’d been there. So don’t miss out because you know it’s gonna be awesome. Thank you again for your time today and, and for everybody listening, go be your awesome self.

Latasha:

Bye.