Visual Currency: The Power of Headshots and Branding in Building Trust with Health Professionals – with John Lindroth
When it comes to marketing your practice, questions about the need and value of headshots are very common. So in this episode, Jo is joined by John Lindroth who is a specialised headshot photographer.
Jo and John discuss the surprising problem with selfies, why the angle of your headshot can affect how much you are trusted by your audience and (potential) clients, why getting your friend who has a good camera to take your headshots isn’t enough if you want to build a trusted and successful practice and why it’s important to keep them up to date.
John has a Bachelor’s Degree in Biology and Computer Science from Juniata College, and a Master’s Degree in Biomedical Computing from the Medical University of South Carolina. He spent the first 25 years of his career as a programmer. Since John has spent the last 10 years in the behavioural health field as an office manager in his wife’s group practice. As a photographer, John started shooting professionally in 2010, with a subject matter of “anything but weddings”. As the pandemic started coming to an end in 2021, he decided to focus all his interest in headshot photography.
You can find out more about John at www.summervilleheadshots.com
Resources mentioned in this episode:
If you know you need more support, please visit my website at https://jomuirhead.com
Transcript
Jo:
Hello, and you have reached the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Ah, today’s guest, well, this is a topic that is probably going to be a little confronting, shall I say, one of the gazillion questions that are asked over and over and over and over again by health professionals all over the world in community forums, are questions that have to do with headshot photography. Now, before you tune out and go, I’m sorted, Jo, I’ve got that, or, I don’t want any more pressure Jo, or it’s so expensive, Jo, I encourage you to stay and listen because I’m actually speaking to a headshot photographer today, not a therapist who knows about headshot photography. And, and no offence to any of the therapists who know about headshot photography. I wanted to get some answers about this important, often time consuming part of marketing, branding, and relationship building. So I welcome John Lindoff to the podcast today. Yay. John, tell us a little bit about yourself. Where are you talking to us from?
John:
Well, I am pretty far away from you guys. I am near Charleston, South Carolina. I live about 20 miles from the beach, so it’s kind of nice to be here. And I guess, an opposite climate from where you are, Jo. So we’re just getting cold here, <laugh>, although in Charleston, it never gets too cold.
Jo:
Thank you, John. I love the fact that the internet has connected us and allowed this conversation to happen. And the conversations that we’ve had haven’t been many to date, but I have always found you to be incredibly, incredibly thoughtful and really wanting to help solve a problem. So that’s why I asked you if you would like to be a guest on this podcast today. So thank you for saying yes.
John:
It’s exciting.
Jo:
Yeah. Thank you. How did you get into headshot photography? Let’s start with that, because it’s not like you’re 22 and this is not your first career <laugh>.
John:
True. Well, I guess I can blame my father in some sense for my interest in photography when I was very young. He bought me a camera and managed to pay for all the film developing, you know, closeups of bugs and flowers that were out of focus. And he never slowed me down. So the whole interest in photography has been around for a long time. My early careers were in programming. So I’ve got a degree in biomedical computing, a master’s degree in biomedical computing. So it takes me a long way from photography, but I think my tendency to look at all the details and pay attention to those, and how things work is part of what I do for photography too, because headshot photography is different from, let’s say, a wedding.
A wedding photographer, which I’ve done as well. It’s rushing. It’s handling all the process, but it’s sort of a happy event type of thing. With a headshot. I’m right up in someone’s face. So it’s all the details of where the light hits and stuff like that. So, when I was finished with my career in programming, I got back to saying, okay, what do I wanna do with the rest of my life? Because I’d spent 10 years in a job programming where it was exciting, but it had absolutely no value at all. I made okay <laugh> money for the company I worked for. They paid me to do it nicely.
But my wife is a counsellor, and so I helped her at one point to start a practice, and I still work with her as her office manager. But when I decided I was going to create a photography business, and the fact that the pandemic and, and the internet have made headshots actually a really important thing for people to have a good image of themselves to present to people who are gonna meet them online. So, I just started studying it. And, and that’s, that’s what got me here.
Jo:
Wow. You are a real problem solver for people, aren’t you, John <laugh>?
John:
No, that is definitely especially commercial photography. It’s not even about taking a great photo. It’s about being the problem solver who can come in and say, okay, yeah, I can set up and do these pictures in this part of your building, and we can get it done, and I can give you a calendar. You can pick the times. It’s finding all the ways to make it easier for my clients is really a big part of being successful, I think.
Jo:
Yeah. And you raise a really interesting point. I was just thinking back to some of the photographers that I have used over the years, and the ones that I will always go back to are the ones that help to put me at ease. Like you’ve said, the camera that you use is right up in somebody’s face. So whenever we’ve got any hangups about the way we look, or we just don’t like people invading space so much. I know the first time I had some headshot done, I was doing fine, and then suddenly I’m like, oh my God, these are going up online and everyone’s gonna see them and they’re gonna know what I look like, and oh my God. And I remember at that moment that the photographer actually just said, let’s take a pause. Something’s just happened here and I need to know what it is. Because you don’t want that much tension going out into the world. And I went, you could pick that up?
So help me understand what, and help this audience understand why do we need a good quality headshot or series of headshots? ’cause It’s not usually just one, right? Why are these important?
John:
Well, I would say having a good headshot where someone can look at it and, and say, oh, you know, it’s almost like meeting someone for the first time. You want to have something that’s closeup that conveys that you are an approachable person. Someone who’s confident and approachable. And you can do that if you’ve been taught how to, usually during the session, it’s not something you’d ever really learn unless perhaps you’re a speaker on stage. You’ve probably learned some of that as far as presenting yourself. But so expression coaching is a lot of what we do. It’s like teaching people what their face is doing when they smile, because a lot of people don’t know what their face looks like. And no, regardless of how much time we spend on zoom each day, we don’t know what our face looks like.
Jo:
It’s a really good point. <Laugh> Zoom is tough.
John:
And cell phones are even worse.
Jo:
Ooh, let’s go there. Keep going.
John:
The fact that a cell phone has a wide angle lens, you have to get it really close to your face and it distorts people’s faces. And I actually read a study where the use of taking selfies on a cell phone camera changes someone’s perspective of what they look like ’cause they see it on the camera. So that’s what they think they look like, and there’s anxiety because they think their nose is big or their forehead is big, or all sorts of strange little features. But the way I’ve got it set up here on a regular camera, I can be close to it and it should be, you know, fairly representative of me. But cell phones are horrible <laugh>.
Jo:
That’s a really important point. And I’m glad you brought it up so quickly. I think many therapists, well, the therapist community or the counselling community, I mean, your wife is a counsellor. And so you can see people walking all the time. And then we’ve got the whole selfie culture, like Jo pretending to take a selfie off this. And there’s these myths out there that your cell phone’s an awesome camera. Just use your awesome camera, do it yourself. Why pay the money for this? Why pay the money for that? You can do it yourself, you know? And we’ve got courses being advertised through TikTok and Instagram on how to take the best selfies ever.
But I think what I really appreciated about what you just said. The true currency of any health professional is trust. The exchange of money is the value, but the true currency is trust. If somebody doesn’t trust you, they’re not gonna work with you. And if we’re gonna choose somebody from a photo, ’cause let’s face it, that always happens. Like you see the photo, I like that person. I can see myself in that person. What do they have to say about themselves? Or in my case, I’ve read a person’s profile, then I’ve gone and looked in the picture and gone, there’s a mismatch there. And that makes me feel uneasy. And I don’t know what I need to do about that right now, but it makes it harder for me to take that next step because of that mismatch. Right? So if we’ve got a selfie of us somewhere, we could actually be turning people off. That could be what’s happening, right?
John:
Yeah, it could. It’s interesting. There’s a lot of psychology involved in photography like this. And there’s something called embodiment research. One of the simplest parts of it is that ust by the fact that we are human and everything we do has to come from the fact that we observe it through eyes and sound and everything else. But our perspective has emotional responses that we have no control over. And so one of the things I’ve found out is that, and they use it in marketing a lot, is that if you’re looking at anything, I mean, it could be a person’s face, it could be a toaster, it doesn’t really matter if you are looking down towards it, you have a slightly negative impression of it.
And if you’re looking up at it, it’s more likely that you have a positive response. But when you’re looking up at something, then there’s the combination of what you hear or read when you’re looking at it. So I use this with my clients. And if you’re looking it up, up at a person and you know, it’s your boss saying you gotta come to the office, that’s probably not a good emotional response, even though you’re looking up. If, on the other side, someone comes and hands you a cheque and says, you’ve been doing a great job, here’s your bonus. If you’re looking up at them, and actually, it improves your perspective. So one of the things that I do in terms of headshots is that my camera’s probably lined up about where their collarbone are pointing up just a little bit. And of course, selfies are up here..
Jo:
Yeah, facing down.
John:
And it’s honestly a thing that nobody really talks about it, but it’s a thing that your mind is gonna think less of you if you’re looking down at them, even in photographs.
Jo:
So that’s fascinating, because we take selfies with the camera up
John:
Absolutely.
Jo:
Cause we want to get rid of the double chin, right? Sure. So it’s really about our vanity, but we go, well, this is gonna put me in the best possible picture so that people who see this picture are gonna be really attracted to this picture. And they’re gonna go, wow, I wanna work with Jo. Essentially what you’re saying is, I do that often enough, and potential clients are already putting me down. Like they’re already thinking I am less than. But then if we take something from underneath and we force the person to look way up at us, then no health professional on the planet’s gonna want that because we can’t have clients revering us. Nobody wants to be a guru in a therapy room. But we also know that the direct to direct face can sometimes be intimidating. Right? So if I’m right up, and, and I know I’ve had people say that to me, it’s like, can you back off a bit, Jo? Like, I need you to not be quite so in my face, especially ’cause when I get excited, I get loud and I take up lots of space. So that can be a bit intimidating. So you are saying that there’s this angle that you use, which is just looking slightly up because it then helps to elevate us professionally.
John:
Yeah. And then in a headshot, there’s a little posing thing. So you lean back the slightest bit and bring your head forward. It does exactly the same thing as looking up.
Jo:
Oh, good God. It does. I just tried, for anyone who’s not watching the video, I just did it. So for all the physiotherapists and occupational therapists and exercise physiologists trying to teach us how to do neck retractions, that’s essentially what we just did. We just pushed our neck forward and my double chins all disappeared. Thanks, John.
John:
Something to take on for any picture you ever have taken again.
Jo:
So wait until I get my neck retraction sorted. Okay. So let’s debunk another myth. Now that we’ve debunked the myth that selfies are better. They’re fine, they’re cheaper. So debunk the myth that headshots are just expensive. They’re an expensive waste of money. You don’t need a headshot photographer. Just get your friend who’s got a good camera to do it.
John:
Well, I guess that’s what my life right now is trying to say, you know, this is worth it. I’ve had plenty of people who’ve come in afterwards and said, oh my gosh, this, this picture that you took of me makes me feel confident or even attractive. I mean, there are people who come in saying, you can’t take a good picture of me. Or I used to go to weddings a lot, but I’ve even had a headshot, I’m sorry, I’m gonna break your camera. It’s a real emotion for people. I think unless your friend happens to know about how to get a person to create an expression that looks approachable and confident, and they can take a good picture and if there are plenty of people who don’t have a lot of money, I mean, and it might be too expensive. But if you’re looking at something in terms of being a clinician and an entrepreneur, those are investments into marketing yourself. I’ve seen the value of it for people that I’ve photographed. Not everyone’s expensive. There’s a range of different photographers as well. So you can find someone who’s maybe not as experienced, not as trained, but can still take a good portrait picture and you can save up your money. I had someone who contacted me and said, yeah, I really need a professional headshot. How much do you charge? And I told her, she says, all right, I’ll start saving my money.
Jo:
We’re not here to discount anything. It is about making sure that we are putting our best foot forward and being paid or experiencing the lifestyle that we want. As a result of that, your contribution to this is, please let me share with you how you can take a good quality headshot. What you need to ask for, what you need to be aware of so that you’re not wasting your money. Right. Because if you get crap headshots done, you’re gonna think it’s expensive. If you get headshots done that you’ll never use, you’re gonna think it’s expensive.
John:
Or even worse, you could have pictures that people look at and are not attracted to. I haven’t seen many that were professionally taken, but plenty of ones that were taken and you could tell they weren’t in a professional studio. Or even, I can do them outdoors too, but you can tell that they’re not, and you look at ’em and say, they’re not really serious. And some of the selfies are horrible. We’ve got a couple counsellors in our area where they just look and say they don’t look like they’ve got a PhD <laugh>
Jo:
Wow. What an interesting thing. What an interesting thing to say. This is probably what happened to me. So I’ve read this person’s credentials and gone, wow, this person sounds exactly like who I need. And then I’ve gone to their photo and it’s obvious now from what you’re saying, it was just a quick happy snap because I need to get this up on the website. And it was really hard for me. It was a mismatch. And it’s not because of what they looked like. It was like, are they as professional as what they say? It’s almost like the particular person I was looking for had all these credentials, and then I saw the photo and I’m like, that person looks like a nutty professor. They look disorganised, they are disheveled. It’s like a passport photo, so no smiling, no glasses. It was poor lighting, so they looked sallow. And that disconnect was really hard for me. And yeah, is that how we wanna be represented?
John:
Right. I was talking to a friend who I’ve done his headshot and I was saying, what’s the best thing you can take away from having the headshot done? He said, well, you have to know what you wanna accomplish and what’s your intent with that photograph. I mean, he’s a storyteller, so he wanted something quirky. He didn’t wanna look like a professional, and anything but someone who’s fun, you want to be around him. And I know with my wife Julie, we’ve spent time taking photographs, trying to get just the expression that she would want one of her clients to have looking at her, you know, in person across the room. I wanna tell her things. And so it takes time. But if you know what you want ahead of time, it’s a lot easier. Because if you just go in and say, I want a headshot, someone can spend 15 minutes with you, 10 minutes, five minutes, and take a photograph, that’s a headshot. But if you go in and say, this is what I want to do, this is what I do. I want people to see this in my face. And, you know, I’ve had people who feel there are things about them that they don’t like, and there are things we can do so you don’t necessarily see the scar on their neck or something? But that’s part of being a good headshot photographer and being able to talk to someone, say, okay, this is what I want, and so this is what I can do for you.
Jo:
Yeah. I think you raise a really important point there ’cause so many clinicians and health professionals have enough trouble thinking that they’re being really public online anyway. It’s terrifying. It’s one of the first things that comes up as a mindset issue when we’re wanting to do that. And money. Huh. Funny about that. So marketing and money are the two things that look at what we’re gonna have to talk about today. But we can’t ignore the fact that we live in an online world. And, and I know for people in the USA, if you do not have an online presence of any sort, then you’re missing out now. It doesn’t need to be your own website, people. You’ve got other options. One of them’s free. It’s called LinkedIn if you wanna be taken seriously. There you go. Some free advice from Je there. Anyhoo moving on from that, where was I headed with that? <Laugh>? Ah, here we go. So, if you had an ideal client coming to you, what would they be able to tell you that they needed to get from this headshot experience?
John:
Well, I think if they can describe what they do and how they want their clients to see them. I mean, do I wanna look like their best friend? Do I wanna look like someone who’s more serious? I mean, plenty of people come in and say, I don’t wanna smile. I’m a banker. I wanna look like I can take care of your money. You know, so it’s not hard, but it’s important to find ways to discuss what the client’s actually looking for and how to express it ’cause there’s definitely ways to get an expression and a good photograph. But I think that’s the interesting part for me, is to know where to go with those photographs.
Jo:
Yeah. So I’m just thinking, so the last time I had some headshots done or branding shots, but we’ll get to that question in a minute. I know that I can come across intense. What I say goes, black is black, white is white. I don’t enjoy the grey. But I am an incredibly empathetic, compassionate person who genuinely cares about people. So I said, I actually need to take some of the intensity that can come with me. So I went to a fun place. I’ve got pictures of me sitting on tables, reading books. I’ve got a picture of me with a crown on my head, making fun of the whole thing, you know? And those photos are so much fun for me to use because it brings the fun side out of me that not everybody gets to see every day. And then there’s one of me sitting upside down in a chair, quite literally, my head is on the floor where your feet usually go, that headshot gets the most reaction.
So for me it was being able to say those things. I want people to find me safe. I want people to know that yes, the work we do is hard, but we don’t have to take ourselves so seriously all the time. But I want people to feel safe with me. But the way we took those pictures wasn’t like, we could have done that in so many different ways, but we chose to do it the fun, quirky way. And that works for me. Right? And like you said, with your wife, you are looking to capture for her a look on her face or in the way that she holds herself that says, tell me stuff. And that’s exactly what it’s like working with her, because I’ve had the pleasure of working with her. It’s like, oh, everybody wants to tell you stuff. Like, she gets little people telling her really hard stuff. She’s quite incredible. And because we spend a lot of time in marketing learning, especially when we’re in the beginning, it’s all about your ideal client. But I think we forget that our ideal client is gonna see us visually. So what is it that we wanna represent? ’cause I’m thinking of some headshot now, particularly old school headshots where there are some health professionals who just look angry. And then we’ve got the ones with the white coat and the stethoscope. That just makes me go, I don’t wanna go near you. You’re gonna hurt me. <Laugh>.
John:
Yeah, that’s true. I guess here there are not too many behavioural health people who would use the white coat look. Yeah. But white coats are pretty, pretty stressful to a lot of people.
Jo:
<Laugh>, I had a website design. I put a white coat on my website once, and I left it there for a little bit too long and went, I can’t have this on my website. What we were trying to convey is that we work collaboratively with medical professionals, but that was not the image to use to do that. <Laugh>.
John:
Well, it’s funny here, I didn’t even know this, but my daughter’s a nurse practitioner. My niece is a nurse, an RN. And so I’ve done headshots for both of them. And my daughter had her white coat because nurse practitioners wear white coats, nurses don’t. And so I asked her about a white coat and her niece was coming, and I was like, she doesn’t have one. And my daughter’s like, no, she doesn’t have one. Nurse’s practitioners wear white coats. Nurses don’t <laugh>.
Jo:
So, yes, I can just imagine. Everybody’s now thinking of the demarcation that we have in healthcare. Yeah. We’ve got exercise physiologists. Do not mistake them with physical therapists. And, you know, your psych deans do not mistake them for LPCs and <laugh>, your rehab counsellors like me, we are way down the bottom of the totem pole. We make fun of everybody. But that’s really interesting, isn’t it? That whole ego trip that we get about the white coat.
John:
Yeah. There’s a little bit of that going on.
Jo:
Anyway, moving on. Just quickly, are there differences between a branding shoot and a headshot shoot?
John:
Absolutely.
Jo:
Okay. And do you find a lot of people coming to you asking for headshots, but what they really want is branding shoots?
John:
Not so much because if you look at my website, it’s headshots. You don’t see anything below, you know, the top button, the collarbone.
Although there were a few people who said, well, can you take a few farther back? And it’s like, yeah, sure, not a problem. But a branding session is really much more about your marketing. It’s marketing and advertising in some sense that, like you said, you’re a headshot. You call them headshots, But you know the photo of you sitting on your head. That’s not a headshot, even though it’s a great photo. It tells a great story. It’s not a headshot, a branding photo. And I think people who work with people generally need both. And I would say that in branding photos, the headshot is probably the first thing that you would capture. And then I mean, I’ve got a list of different stuff that I like to see on branding shots. There’s your headshot, you’ve got a working shot, so it’s you in your location doing something that you know people. So if you work in a retail store or if you’re at your desk as a clinician, you can arrange part of your work environment around you for a photograph. Those are much more casual. I guess most of the branding stuff is pretty casual. Because you want to take your personality and put it into your business. That’s sort of the personal branding idea. So, if you’ve got a certain vibe to what you do. I mean, one of Julie’s favourite headshots is one where she’s laughing. I mean, the smile is just big and she’s laughing and, you know, that I wouldn’t call more necessarily a headshot, but it’s a good branding photo because she wants people to know that when she’s talking to them, they’re gonna laugh. And that’s the intent of going with that kind of thing. And then some people use personal lifestyles photos where, you know, they’re with their kids or they’re making kids toys and you wanna see the person playing with their kids with some of the toys that they make, stuff like that. So, I mean, the branding stuff is way more interesting and creative I think.
Jo:
<Laugh>, oh, I really appreciate you helping the audience understand that what I was describing was not a headshot. Because I kind of did that deliberately and went, we’ve got a perfect example that I’m trying to express audibly <laugh>, because we haven’t got the visual representation of that. But I think a lot of people like the fun and excitement of a branding shoot. I don’t think people understand the nuances and the importance of having a really good quality headshot. So for somebody like Julie, we’re on the interwebs. Where would you use a really good quality headshot?
John:
So it’s on her website under her bio and she’s got a LinkedIn page. I think it’s there. It’s on Psychology Today. I don’t know if they work in Australia or not. But you want something that looks close enough so that you can see a person’s face and get that sense that you feel connected to them somehow. Honestly, most of the rest of Julie’s stuff is more landscape things that are local to our area. Some people put them on their email signatures. If you’re producing something in terms of a workbook or a book, or if you’re presenting where someone asks you for a headshot, you know, because they want to have a picture of you. They don’t necessarily want to have a picture of you sitting on your head. <Laugh>.
Jo:
No, I wouldn’t use that. So I do not use that picture in my media kits. Let me very, very clearly, I do not use the picture of me upside down <laugh> for a media kit, but I do have a headshot that I use as a media for my media kit. And the media kit doesn’t just me getting in on TV type media. It could be for a podcast interview or a YouTube interview, or more likely. Here in Australia we call it Source Bottle, you guys call it HARO. So it’s where reporters are looking for advice so again, if you don’t have a good quality headshot, no one in the media is gonna take you seriously.
John:
Yeah, no, that’s true. <Laugh>.
Jo:
So the first thing we’re taught at speaker school, you are going to have to invest in good quality headshots. The first thing that they would say is that we can help you with your speaker’s presentation and your stage presence, but until you’ve got that headshot, nobody’s gonna take notice of you.
John:
And in that case, it’s important to keep them up to date. Because if you’ve got one from 15, 20 years ago where it’s obviously old. Oh gosh, I would’ve had hair then!
Jo:
<Laugh> Mine’s the hair as well. My hair all came out in 2020. My head’s very different now. <Laugh>.
John:
So yeah, it’s good to keep things up to date, even if you think you look better, then it’s still important to keep them up to date.
Jo:
Yeah. But it’s not about us. It’s not about our ego and looking better. It’s about being able to make that connection with a person and doing it visually, which many people will find confronting. That was the confronting bit. People judge us on how we look. It doesn’t mean that we all need to go on a diet. That is not what I’m saying. And please don’t, what I’m saying is the way you turn up online needs to be the way a client sees you when it, when they turn up in a room with you, right? So if you look angry or standoffish or stressed or in pain, or like, you don’t wanna be there when you’re getting a headshot and you put that headshot out to the world, number one, clients are gonna find it really hard to come and see you ’cause you are not actually making ’em feel safe. So let’s help bridge that gap, because let’s face it, clients find it hard enough to come and see us anyway. We don’t have to make it harder for them.
John:
<Laugh>. And honestly if you’re a therapist who’s going to be honest and open with you and get into all your details, and you see that they’re not who they say they are when you meet them in person. I don’t know this personally, but I would imagine that that would, there would be a reaction there. Like, oh wow, you, you cover up all that stuff in a filter.
Jo:
That is powerful. I’ve never used filters because I just get so distracted by all the things on social media. But again, I’m very much about what you see is what you get. And I think that’s a philosophy that we can all take. So, you know, ladies with your grey hair on no hair, what you see is what you get.
John, this has been really fascinating and interesting and, and I know it’s answered some questions for me. Number one, start saving up for another headshot. ’cause I haven’t done them for a couple of years. So how can people get in touch with you? Like, what’s the best way to get in touch with you if they wanna ask a question or if they wanna book a shoot? I would love for people to book a shoot with John people. How do they get in touch with you?
John:
Well my website is called somervilleheadshots.com. Yeah. And it’s Somerville like summer, the season. And I’ve got all my contact stuff there, so you can hit the little about, or the contact thing and, and you have more information about me than you know you need.
Jo:
Great. So John’s address will be in the show notes. It’ll be on social media when I get this one published, which is gonna be great. So John there’s a chance you and I are gonna be meeting in real life, maybe next year. You probably don’t know that, but Julie and I were talking about it again this morning. <Laugh>. Okay. When we get to meet each other in real life and we’re going to a real cafe, what coffee will I order for you?
John:
Oh, interesting. Well, I’ve got a favourite that I make here that I don’t see very often, but it’s a Turkish coffee.
Jo:
I would love to order you a Turkish coffee. Yeah. Let’s go somewhere where we can actually get Turkish coffee.
John:
Yeah, I would love to go somewhere and have it. I mean, I’ve made it myself, but I would love to have one main authentically, ’cause I don’t think I’m as authentic. Lots of sugar, a little cream.
Jo:
Oh, we are gonna go find that. Okay. Thank you, a man after my own heart with the coffee thing. This has been great. I appreciate your time and your energy and your thoughtfulness today, John. And you have been listening to the Entrepreneurial Clinician Podcast. Until next time, go be your awesome self.
Published on:
JANUARY 23, 2024
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